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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MrMyth" data-source="post: 5688013" data-attributes="member: 61155">Right. I said in my last post that the problem with Expertise is that they are measured against a group with no options, rather than one with the average options. What I didn't make clear is that there really is no easy way to know what that 'average' group is.  Now, in theory, with a balanced system, the group that doesn't have those "+5 to hit for a round" powers will instead have other powers that make up the difference in other ways. In actuality, that isn't the case - some abilities are certainly more potent than others.  Will the average group generally still end up with at least a couple such abilities? I think so. I've seen non-optimized PCs bust out powers that I didn't think much of, compared to the 'easy choices', and discovered their choices were perfectly effective as well.  With your 30th level rogue, without expertise, in theory he is hitting less often than at 1st level. But is he targeting more Non-AC defenses with his powers? Is he making attacks as minor actions or interrupts? Does he have Nimble Blade or other bonuses that let him benefit more from combat advantage? Is he more able to guarantee having combat advantage?  And even if he does end up being more accurate than at level 1, has he still fallen behind due to the shift in damage vs monster hp? Is that compensated by the more effective conditions he is inflicting? Etc.  It is a hard question to answer. Honestly, the hp issue is, I think, more relevant than the accuracy issue... but also looks worse than it actually is - that big chunk a rogue does compared to monster hp is most exaggerated at level 1, and tapers to a more average amount somewhat early on.  Could some of these issues have been removed by a more balanced system? Probably. Multi-attacks, and the huge attack bonus buffs, and other stuff like that, definitely throw things off a bit, making that optimization 'potential' much higher than it would otherwise be.  Items are another area, especially since the question of whether you can choose your own items or not will shift from one campaign to the next.  So in the end, you can't really measure what the 'average' PC is capable of. On the other hand, balancing against the absolute weakest PC is, in my mind, just as poor a choice as balancing everything against only the most optimized of characters.</blockquote>

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