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WotC's Jeremy Crawford Talks D&D Alignment Changes
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<blockquote data-quote="MostlyHarmless42" data-source="post: 8029183" data-attributes="member: 6845520"><p>So I largely agree with your post, though I point out that this particular example is an extreme. While yes it doesn't require a strong lawful slant to object to something as obvious as murder (I would argue the defining trait of Good vs neutral vs evil is how much one values life, i.e. heavily leaning good characters should ideally only kill after all other options are given a chance), things are a bit more complicated when trying to consider law vs chaos. For example, if a society is structured in a way that is heavily unfair towards a particular subgroup, the lawful person would likely seek to fix the system from within, while the chaotic one would seek extra-lawful aids. I seek not to derail this thread, but unfortunately one of the best examples of this would perhaps be the current hot topic of police brutality. The lawful good would protest peacefully and seek to chance the laws from within while the chaotic one would see no issue with deliberately breaking the laws in order to save lives and achieve their cause. </p><p></p><p>It's actually a big problem I have with those who end up picking Chaotic neutral just to ignore alignment; those who seek to do that should be true neutral. Chaotic people are those who are actively opposed to order on a fundamental level, being either true Anarchists, or be so adverse to strict regimented habits/personal planning. To merely be "going with what feels right at the moment" is not sufficient to be CN, one should hate the very <em>idea</em> of sticking to a strict scheduled lifestyle or feel trapped by systems of authority.</p><p></p><p>On a whole the concept of alignment is once again quite subject to the DM's interpretation, which is why I tend to have a bit of a chat with my players as part of session 0 to confirm how I interpret things as a DM and let them decide the appropriate alignment as they see fit. I've found that trying to explain possible ways how each different alignment views the world how I hinted at beforehand works wonders for this.</p><p></p><p>On the general topic of alignment and how WOTC will be making changes going forward, I applaud their efforts and will definitely incorporate at least most of what they do. I do sort of still personally see the value in depicting some beings as being innately leaning towards certain alignments, but I always speak with my players and make it clear to them that this is NOT how every member of different races are, but merely general tendencies. I actively encourage them to come up with non typical alignment choices, and typically only provide information for them to consider figuring out <em>how</em> their characters sort of broke away from the norms. </p><p></p><p>The big thing I feel a lot of players and DMs forget is that alignment is a fluid concept. One must remember that in most stories characters rarely end up the same alignment they start out as, and it is often a sign of bad writing for them not to shift alignments at least once. A recent (or old pending on what you define) example is Cloud from FF7, whom starts out strongly true Neutral and has a pretty clear shift towards true good as the game progresses and he becomes more focused on saving lifes and less about making money.</p><p></p><p>The exception is those stories in which a character being stagnate in their beliefs <em>is</em> the point, a great example of this being most depictions of Batman, where the entire point of the story is having his hardcore good stance on not killing questioned. Him undergoing a slip towards neutral or evil means something truly big has gone down, or tends to be a tragic depiction of the character.</p><p></p><p>Now, that all said, I for one in my games typically depict certain nonmortal creatures like demons, Angel's, gods, etc. as being largely incapable of alignment shifting except in extreme circumstances. Others are more than welcome to interpret them differently but I personally like having this distinction as a deliberate difference between them and mortality. Especially with gods, I personally find it a useful narrative tool that deliberately explains mortal free will. The outsiders/immortals are not truly sentient as they are shackled by their alignment...and <em>that's the point.</em> Anyone is welcome to rule otherwise. </p><p></p><p>That said, I've done precisely what Crawford has hinted at numerous times (i.e. good chromatic dragons, good demons, etc., evil celestials), and I feel no reason to be 100% ironclad about them being unable to shift, I merely just always from them a <em>reason</em> they aren't the norm. Usually I rule they had some sort of moment where they had a sudden shift that radically altered their beliefs/personality, examples of which include death of another god, loved one, being put in an unwinnable position (looking at you Zariel or the Abbot from Curse of Strahd). I find at the end of the day it's about both trying to retell a good narrative while being open and honest with your players and listening to their input.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="MostlyHarmless42, post: 8029183, member: 6845520"] So I largely agree with your post, though I point out that this particular example is an extreme. While yes it doesn't require a strong lawful slant to object to something as obvious as murder (I would argue the defining trait of Good vs neutral vs evil is how much one values life, i.e. heavily leaning good characters should ideally only kill after all other options are given a chance), things are a bit more complicated when trying to consider law vs chaos. For example, if a society is structured in a way that is heavily unfair towards a particular subgroup, the lawful person would likely seek to fix the system from within, while the chaotic one would seek extra-lawful aids. I seek not to derail this thread, but unfortunately one of the best examples of this would perhaps be the current hot topic of police brutality. The lawful good would protest peacefully and seek to chance the laws from within while the chaotic one would see no issue with deliberately breaking the laws in order to save lives and achieve their cause. It's actually a big problem I have with those who end up picking Chaotic neutral just to ignore alignment; those who seek to do that should be true neutral. Chaotic people are those who are actively opposed to order on a fundamental level, being either true Anarchists, or be so adverse to strict regimented habits/personal planning. To merely be "going with what feels right at the moment" is not sufficient to be CN, one should hate the very [I]idea[/I] of sticking to a strict scheduled lifestyle or feel trapped by systems of authority. On a whole the concept of alignment is once again quite subject to the DM's interpretation, which is why I tend to have a bit of a chat with my players as part of session 0 to confirm how I interpret things as a DM and let them decide the appropriate alignment as they see fit. I've found that trying to explain possible ways how each different alignment views the world how I hinted at beforehand works wonders for this. On the general topic of alignment and how WOTC will be making changes going forward, I applaud their efforts and will definitely incorporate at least most of what they do. I do sort of still personally see the value in depicting some beings as being innately leaning towards certain alignments, but I always speak with my players and make it clear to them that this is NOT how every member of different races are, but merely general tendencies. I actively encourage them to come up with non typical alignment choices, and typically only provide information for them to consider figuring out [I]how[/I] their characters sort of broke away from the norms. The big thing I feel a lot of players and DMs forget is that alignment is a fluid concept. One must remember that in most stories characters rarely end up the same alignment they start out as, and it is often a sign of bad writing for them not to shift alignments at least once. A recent (or old pending on what you define) example is Cloud from FF7, whom starts out strongly true Neutral and has a pretty clear shift towards true good as the game progresses and he becomes more focused on saving lifes and less about making money. The exception is those stories in which a character being stagnate in their beliefs [I]is[/I] the point, a great example of this being most depictions of Batman, where the entire point of the story is having his hardcore good stance on not killing questioned. Him undergoing a slip towards neutral or evil means something truly big has gone down, or tends to be a tragic depiction of the character. Now, that all said, I for one in my games typically depict certain nonmortal creatures like demons, Angel's, gods, etc. as being largely incapable of alignment shifting except in extreme circumstances. Others are more than welcome to interpret them differently but I personally like having this distinction as a deliberate difference between them and mortality. Especially with gods, I personally find it a useful narrative tool that deliberately explains mortal free will. The outsiders/immortals are not truly sentient as they are shackled by their alignment...and [I]that's the point.[/I] Anyone is welcome to rule otherwise. That said, I've done precisely what Crawford has hinted at numerous times (i.e. good chromatic dragons, good demons, etc., evil celestials), and I feel no reason to be 100% ironclad about them being unable to shift, I merely just always from them a [I]reason[/I] they aren't the norm. Usually I rule they had some sort of moment where they had a sudden shift that radically altered their beliefs/personality, examples of which include death of another god, loved one, being put in an unwinnable position (looking at you Zariel or the Abbot from Curse of Strahd). I find at the end of the day it's about both trying to retell a good narrative while being open and honest with your players and listening to their input. [/QUOTE]
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