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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8035619" data-attributes="member: 6801228">This has nothing to do with any responses, but I saw something. I flipped open volo's to see if they listed Gruumsh's portfolio and noticed the "Orc Flaws" #1 -> "I have a calm temperament and let insults roll off my back#4 -> "I understand the value of civilization and the order that society brings"#6 -> "I believe in living to fight another day"I glanced at Yuan-Ti and they have a similiar set, but this really is helping drive the points home. There are orcs that can be calm, or understand society and they are the Orcs that have "flaws" and are less "orcish"I apologize for not using your exact wording in the exact order and exact way you said it.So, you refuse to use DnD lore as written... wait, I'm putting words in your mouth again. You don't use new gnoll lore. Spawn points don't cut it for your game. Following from those two points, I begin making interpretations and assumptions, but the next sentences are my thoughts and not exactly what Maxperson has said. Demon lore includeds spawning from the Abyss. That sounds like a spawn point. I can assume since  "Spawn points don't cut it for my game." that you have also changed that detail. I will also assume that since " Spawn points don't cut it for my game." that you do not use the Meenlock lore, since they also spawn. However, just because you do not use it for your game, does not mean it does not exist in the game. So, it would be possible to create orcs in such a way as to follow the examples of gnolls, meenlocks and demons, and avoid the problem of orc babies.I will now make assumptions and follow this discussion with my own thoughts, these are not Maxperson's words, which are quoted above this in their entirety. I do not presume to put words in Maxperson's mouthFrankly, I doubt I'd get very many people calling them ugly. I feel like you are judging them by a very high standard of beauty, or perhaps you just find the artistic style on them displeasing, but compared to something like the Annis Hag or Fomorian, these are clearly neutral at worst.Wow, comparing the half-orcs to Lenny from Of Mice and Men? Real classy there. And, yes, Orcs are often antagonists. So are dragons. Doesn't prevent good dragons. Actually, lot of stories where the elves are antagonists. Can still have good elves.  Heck, most fiction involves human's being the antagonist.The point though, was that making orcs not evil, does not remove their cultural cache. They still have something to bring to the table. And if we had to choose to keep Orcs, Dragonborn or Goliaths, Orcs would win. Hands down.And purple child shaming. Again, real classy. Love to see that you are open and willing to hear discussions. So, let me go ahead and follow the line of logic that we have just created.1) The only reason people want to play orcs is to be anti-heroes2) Not everyone wants to be an anti-hero, some people are pulling from different inspirations3) If your special snowflake self wants beardless dwarven swashbucklers, the game is not obligated to create a race of beardless dwarven swashbucklers. So, no. You are wrong. Not only, like I said, is it possible to play an anti-hero going against the group of evil without needing to involve race (former cultists or members of evil empires are great for this) but since not everyone is pulling from the same sources of fiction, they might be looking for different types of games. They may be wanting to play an Eberron style orc, who is a tribal protector of ancient seals, not a murderous savage who people will flee from on sight lest he decapitate them and drink from their skull. Also, while tieflings are a poster child "anti-hero" race, they are also the poster child for "The Sins of the Father" because no tiefling is ever choosing their nature. They are born with a stigma because someone else, potentially thousands of years ago, made an evil decision. So yes, I tend to not assume that Tieflings will be treated as though they are evil, because for thousands of years they have just been the children of people who made evil decisions. And I do not believe in blaming the child for the sins of their great-great-great grandparents. In fact, there is a tiefling in a game I am playing, and she went digging for some 3.5 races and came across Pearl tieflings. Are you familiar? They were a variant where the churches prayed and conducted holy rituals to purge the Infernal essence from the body of the child. So, she is playing a character who was left as an orphan at a church, and the priest their literally prayed away the evil in her blood, and altered her very nature and body, while she was a baby. Which, I don'y know about anyone else, but we all expressed quite a bit of "yikes, that is horrifying" especially since she was still treated as though she was a boiling pot of evil, just ready to explode. That's what she wanted, and we've all worked around it, but I could easily see that sort of story making certain gamers sick to their stomach, so offering an alternative is a good idea. Because, some people just want to have horns, and some people want to explore the social reality of being the literal spawn of evil that everyone despises. Different strokes.And the endless circle continues. Which, I guess shouldn't be surprising since you cut my entire post and only responded to the straw man of "it is bad because I say so" I went back and looked, and you ignored about seventeen lines of text and addressed none of it, which I know you had to have read since the part you snipped out was buried in one of the last paragraphs. So, if you aren't interested in having a conversation, I'm not going to bother any more.</blockquote>

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