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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8038331" data-attributes="member: 6801228">Not sure how trying to clarify how Neutral Evil and Neutral good interact with each other, and then being told that you weren't going to bother explaining to me since there was no way you could convince me ends up with me trying to score points. But, okay, have three points. +3 Right, see, this might be part of the problem. I'm quoting the book here. PHB page 122 "and the other describes attitudes toward society and order (lawful, chaotic, or neutral). " That by the way is it on what "Lawful" and "Chaotic" mean. After that it goes directly into the nine alignments. So, reading 5e, how am I supposed to take that quote and understand that Chaos is not against society, but instead only against rigid society? Perhaps as a player I am supposed to go and read up on the various planes of existence? If I go to the back of the book I see that CN is... The Ever-Changing Chaos of Limbo. I might even go and look up the Githzerai, and see that they live in these places... imposing order on the maelstrom which otherwise would prevent anything from forming. So... perhaps it is not that I am making blanket statements of fact, but that I am relaying the facts that are being presented to me by the game. Nothing about Chaos ever seems to imply that it is fine with society, especially since Society is specifically called out, along with Order.Yes I can ignore it, I've ignored it for years, as have lots of other people. But, since we are talking about WoTC removing alignment, and people have said "no, it is useful for telling me how monsters should act" I felt that I was able to show that, no, it doesn't and it being removed won't change your game in any meaningful way. I also love your attempts at Chaotic Societies, because you completely seem to miss that none of those are actually chaotic. Again, quoting from the PHBLawful good creatures can be counted on to do the right thing as expected by society. Lawful neutralindividuals act in accordance with law, tradition, or personal codes.Lawful evil creatures methodically take what they want, within the limits of a code of tradition, loyalty, or order. Your society doesn't believe in long-term partners? Then having multiple short term partners as society expects is lawful. In fact, the chaotic person might break tradition by settling down with a single, long-term partner. Your justice system traditionally works by trial by combat? Then you are acting in accordance with Tradition and that is Lawful. Land Ownership? Not believing in Land Ownership is no more chaotic than not believing in paper money. A society could live by strict laws and have no land ownership at all. It honestly seems like people have this idea of what alignments used to mean, and now are trying to apply that today's rules. Those land ownership and polygamy points in particular seems to indicate that you feel "chaotic" is anything that breaks the laws you are familiar with and understand to bring order, but that ignores the fact that you can have a lawful society with different laws than what you are used to.That was just the bullet points to be honest, I tend to write a significant bit for backstories, because they help me figure out who a character is. For example, while you say that LG was a good choice, I also was part of the Greycloaks, an organization trying to pressure Neverember (the rightful ruler) out of the city and put someone else in charge. That could be read as Chaotic, and was a pretty defining feature of his, wanting to change the current ruling government. And, I think this is that hardest point Alignment fails at. Good vs Evil? That is a fairly easy divide, we can work with that. Law vs Chaos is a mess, because it is so open to interpretation and nuance.Just take the above examples from The Sword, which assume that our societal norms are "lawful" and a society expressing different norms is "chaotic"Thank you, you as well.</blockquote>

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