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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8039415" data-attributes="member: 6801228">The opinion that written laws are more lawful than oral traditionsThe opinion that nomadic people are more chaotic than people who live in citiesThe opinion that traditional honor codes are less lawful than contract writingthe opinion that it is a despot's  results that matter for whether they are lawful or chaotic. The opinion that a polygamous relationship is less lawful than a monagamous oneThe opinion that tribal people are less lawful than city peopleThe opinion that enforcing laws and order is chaotic if it is destablizing in the long-termThe opinion that Neutral evil is "transactional" but Neutral Good isn'tThe opinion that how likely they are to betray you is a sign of how chaotic they are (really? A devil is just as likely to betray you, just by the letter of the law)The opinion that personal codes need to be pre-written for a lawful neutral characterI could keep going from the previous examples of other posters.And, I'm not trying to be extremely precise, I'm trying to limit the discussion to what rules we have. Because if the system is what people are using to gain information, then I should be able to show that information available just from what we have in the books.Instead, what I am finding are people making assumptions and claims that they assume are true, but have no basis in the rules. So, if the rules aren't giving us anything useful. If they are so general that everyone can have their own interpretation and they are all right... then what use are they?Old hands might be fine with NE, knowing exactly what that means for them, but for a new DM? Someone who is reading the monster statblocks? It doesn't seem to provide anything useful for them, and instead seems contradictory and more confusing.I'm impressed. I don't see the Blood War, Yugoloths, or Grey Wastes listed under Neutral evil. When I read Neutral Evil it just say they "do whatever they think they can get away with." which could describe.. well, pretty much anything evil.It really sounds to me like you were inspired by:Lore about the Blood WarLore about YugolothsLore about HagsLore about the MultiverseNone of which is listed in the alignment section... in fact, pulling inspiration from the lore in the books instead of alignment.... is exactly what I keep saying people will likely do. Funny that.So a moral code only counts, if it prevents you from doing something you would otherwise want to do. If I am, say, a policeman father, and I say "I won't lie to save my own skin" that isn't a moral code, unless I otherwise would have lied to save my own skin and the code I just imposed on myself prevents it? Or do moral codes have to be imposed from an external source for them to count? I mean, if a person is the type to be honest no matter what, does it matter if they have a code imposed to be honest, or if it just that they want to always tell the truth? I don't see what the distinction is, unless you are saying that a code must control behavior that you would otherwise indulge in. Which seems like a rather narrow idea of a code. Especially if held up against, say, an LG Paladin holding an Oath. Those are also Codes, but if the Paladin is simply the type of person to do those things anyways, in your definition they wouldn't count.If you do not have enough information to make an informed decision, then your decision is essentially random. If your reason is to try and judge what is more lawful than that what, then you need to have some sort of scale to work from.Right CG is acting arbitrarily according to their whims, with no regard to other's expectations.</blockquote>

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