Reply to thread

Message

<blockquote data-quote="rounser" data-source="post: 5413204" data-attributes="member: 1106">I think this gets to the crux of where things have gone so wrong; applying too much logic to as ornery a beast as D&amp;D.Logic suggests that simpler rules are better, and this is the error you're making here - if that were true we'd all ditch D&amp;D for FUDGE.Logic also suggests that twelve year olds are the lowest common denominator, and that the vocabulary and depth have to match that.Logic is wrong.&nbsp; One of D&amp;D's core appeals is as a bastion of the arcane in the world of the mundane.&nbsp; It can never be balanced and represent a believable world anymore than the real world can.&nbsp; To dispose of it's depth and frills of color and detail is to strike at it's heart.&nbsp; Look at 4E Wotc D&amp;D and 4E Kenzerco Hackmaster.&nbsp; Both are fun yet extremist, and D&amp;D used to straddle that divide, but does no more.D&amp;D cannot beat the computer games, except in three key areas: Self actualisation, improvisation, and arcane-ness.&nbsp; D&amp;D's fun is NOT in the combat engine, but as a fantasy construction kit to make your own world, characters and adventures, and should support that more.&nbsp; Prep time is still ridiculous, and support for improvised play near nonexistent.&nbsp; D&amp;D can never beat the computers at combat, so IMO they should just relinquish that pie in the sky and speed it up.&nbsp; The focus should be on epic quests, not 60 minute single encounters.And arcane-ness could be played up instead of binned.&nbsp; The AD&amp;D books looked and read like spellbooks, and hinted at wonders to come, and didn't treat it's readers like fools (yes, even twelve year olds know when they're being patronized).&nbsp; Nothing else in our culture, short of the occult, can offer the sense of mystery and possibility that D&amp;D books with the right style of writing, look and feel can offer.&nbsp; And 4E PHB is not just patronizing and peppered with insulting purple prose, but reads like a reference manual, which for a game which requires lots of reading is not only not Fun (TM), but also death for a game whose job it is to inspire as a lifeblood for it's players.You're basically saying that reductionism is the only path to fun; I'm saying that's classic geek style thinking (of a type I'm well subscribed to), but also very missing the point, and a guaranteed way to throw the baby out with the bathwater (which is where we are now).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="rounser, post: 5413204, member: 1106"] I think this gets to the crux of where things have gone so wrong; applying too much logic to as ornery a beast as D&D. Logic suggests that simpler rules are better, and this is the error you're making here - if that were true we'd all ditch D&D for FUDGE. Logic also suggests that twelve year olds are the lowest common denominator, and that the vocabulary and depth have to match that. Logic is wrong. One of D&D's core appeals is as a bastion of the arcane in the world of the mundane. It can never be balanced and represent a believable world anymore than the real world can. To dispose of it's depth and frills of color and detail is to strike at it's heart. Look at 4E Wotc D&D and 4E Kenzerco Hackmaster. Both are fun yet extremist, and D&D used to straddle that divide, but does no more. D&D cannot beat the computer games, except in three key areas: Self actualisation, improvisation, and arcane-ness. D&D's fun is NOT in the combat engine, but as a fantasy construction kit to make your own world, characters and adventures, and should support that more. Prep time is still ridiculous, and support for improvised play near nonexistent. D&D can never beat the computers at combat, so IMO they should just relinquish that pie in the sky and speed it up. The focus should be on epic quests, not 60 minute single encounters. And arcane-ness could be played up instead of binned. The AD&D books looked and read like spellbooks, and hinted at wonders to come, and didn't treat it's readers like fools (yes, even twelve year olds know when they're being patronized). Nothing else in our culture, short of the occult, can offer the sense of mystery and possibility that D&D books with the right style of writing, look and feel can offer. And 4E PHB is not just patronizing and peppered with insulting purple prose, but reads like a reference manual, which for a game which requires lots of reading is not only not Fun (TM), but also death for a game whose job it is to inspire as a lifeblood for it's players. You're basically saying that reductionism is the only path to fun; I'm saying that's classic geek style thinking (of a type I'm well subscribed to), but also very missing the point, and a guaranteed way to throw the baby out with the bathwater (which is where we are now). [/QUOTE]

Verification