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Message: <blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 5413571" data-attributes="member: 957">It is hard to even start presenting a point of view because there are so many loaded terms and preconceived notions to contend with.  (Not from Matt, just in general)I don't think the design of D&D is micromanaged from above at all.  But, I DO think it is aimed(in the grossest of terms) from above. The designers in the weeds know that while their day to day choices are theirs to make, without concern of being micromanaged, the big picture must still fall within the aim set from above.  They don't care how you get there, but if Mearls and friends don't drive some route toward the established goal, they will be replaced by someone who will.  The crew is most certainly choosing a scenic route that includes great sites of editions past, but the destination is frequently limiting the quality of those visits.Nobody at any level hates old players.  They want every single player they can get.However, they look at the number of WoW players and the number of tabletop players doesn't seem like a meaningful base to get hung up over.  We used to be the center of attention, now we are just part of a very large crowd.  It isn’t remotely hate, but going from “love” to “indifference” may certainly feel a lot like hate.  And even “indifferent” may be a bit strong of a word.  They want you very much, but they just don’t want you any more than anyone else.  And for every one of you, there are more than fifty WoW players who have never played tabletop.  If they replace you with any random two out of the crowd of you plus fifty WoW players, they have doubled their audience.  It makes total business sense.  But the odds are that you are not one of the two.  So you feel tossed aside.  But, they still LOVE to have their new two PLUS you.  They can’t help it that the choice that doubled their fan base caused you to be the one that actually elected to end the relationship.But here is the problem.  They DIDN’T double the fan base.  Not even close.  I know I’ll get all the gripes about how I don’t know how well they are doing.  But I do know that I know a hell of a lot less people who play D&D than I used to.  And circumstantial evidence after circumstantial evidence unrelentingly supports the view that my experience is consistent with the larger scale reality.  I don’t doubt that pockets of exceptions exist.  And I am also not claiming that 4E is anywhere close to dead, it is bringing in a steady flow of cash.  But, it isn’t growing the base.  Rather than gaining 2 for every 1 they lost, I think they have lost 4 or 5 for every 2 or 3 they gained.  It started off way better than that, but the decline has been rapid.And this ties back to the quotes I copied above.  4E is a game.  The buzzword “gamist” has been tied to it from before release.  Yes, Mearls loves old editions.  But Mearls himself also said that if you love wordl building this probably wouldn’t be the game for you.4E is NOT WoW.  I don’t claim it is.  There are some elements in common, but there are huge differences as well.  BUT, 4E clearly IS a tabletop game designed to try to appeal to MMO players who were not tabletop players.  MMOs are not about world-building.  They are about being a game and having powers. The problem is, a huge chunk of the tabletop fan base loves the hobby because it isn’t *just* a game.  Just as many 4E fans love that 4E is, as Matt said “the most game-like”, many fans of prior editions love that they don’t get hung up on being overly game-like.  It is all a matter of degrees.  There is a ton of GAME in all prior editions, and without the slightest question, you can roleplay to your heart’s content in a 4E session.  But great RPGs are about where the Mechanics and the Roleplay intersect.  And, for many of us, 4E is much too “game-like”.  The balance between “roleplaying” and “game” is out of whack.   Str of 17 is not a game.  But it is one of a virtually infinite number of dots.  And those dots all combine to make the picture.Powers are not cool or dumb.  Stats are not cool or dumb.  They are just ingredients.  And it takes the right mix of ingredients to make a good product.  But what is good depends on who is playing.  And taking the ingredients of a good cake (MMO) and trying to make a good pie (tabletop) may make a decent pie, and you will find some people who think it is awesome pie.  But if you want the most broadly popular pie you can make, then you need to keep the fact that it is a pie in mind when you make it.  At the end of the day 4E is probably the absolute best *game* of any D&D and is also the most appealing to otherwise non –tabletop gamers.  There are a lot of different dimensions of fun, and on that particular axis they have made great progress toward optimization.  But, tabletop will never come close to what MMOs can achieve on that axis.  And in the meantime, the “game” optimization has significantly detracted from other dimensions that some of us value for “fun”.</blockquote>

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