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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MrMyth" data-source="post: 5414398" data-attributes="member: 61155">Eh, I think the argument is less, "We can't define fun, because everyone's idea of fun is different", and more, "There are many different approaches to a game, and we have chosen one we are happy with, though we know that others might have preferred a different choice."  I think the Paragon level divide is really what is aimed at this area, but that it is true there isn't enough support there. I think the existence of the tier divide itself helps the DM work on these developments, but that there is room for WotC to go farther. I don't think Epic Destinies are 'the opposite of ambition' as you say - they just are a later step in the process.  It is the step in between that you are looking for: The fighter starts as a Hero in the Heroic tier. By the Epic tier, he is a King. What you want (and what I agree would be useful) is the Paragon tier declaring that he is a Lord, or General, or otherwise at some role in between. Should this be developed via Paragon Path? Some of them come close. Or maybe some new system could be in place.  Still, I do think that the existence of the tiers, and the example set by Epic Destinies, shows more support for this sort of development than we really had in 3rd Edition.   ...and the favors of the people he has saved, influence with the region, a greater reputation, etc. I'm not sure where you are seeing the lack of these things.  My first 4E adventure was Keep on the Shadowfell, and we emerged with the friendship of the local lord - not to mention a goblin henchman. In LFR, my characters have all sorts of regional favors and reputations and titles.  I just don't see how 'magic and rewards' work differently in 4E in some fundamental way that removes the connections to the 'Temporal World'.   Now, this is an interesting comment. I've seen players for whom this is true, and others for whom it is not. Some players will certainly still make their feat choices based on what is appropriate given their character's experiences. Others will take a hodge-podge of options from all sorts of sources, simply because the feats work well together. And I agree that 4E doesn't do much to discourage the latter approach.  But... thing is, the same players acted the exact same way in 3rd Edition, too. And the only reason it didn't really happen in previous editions is because you generally just had less options anyway - you didn't have constant choices to make about feats and powers and such.  Now, how could 4E encourage people to take more appropriate character options? Ones which reveal a character's nature when examined, rather than just reveal what nifty tricks he can pull off in combat? I'm honestly not sure - maybe more background on the feats, more flavor text, etc.  Except that many already have those elements. Along with, often, skill or race or stat requirements to make sure at least somewhat appropriate characters take the feats. The players who like the flavor and background and are inspired by it will continue to be so, and will continue to make choices based on those elements. The players who don't care, and just want stuff that lets them do awesome things in the game? They will continue to ignore the fluff as much as they can.  As it is, 4E has provided many tools to let your character sheet show the nature of your character. Backgrounds, skills, ability scores, paragon paths - and, yes, even feats and powers - can help define you.  I mean... looking at a 2nd Ed Fighter's character sheet, what element on there somehow 'reveals' so much more than a 4E character sheet? What helps describe the in-game choices that have been made? The fact he has at keep at 9th level? Does that mean the character sheet is useless until that level? Or is there something else you are looking for?   I don't disagree that those are good things, I'm just... not convinced they are actually missing in the game. Many of WotC's adventure offerings aren't that great, but they seem to have been improving and certainly have them grounded in an in-game world.  I mean, I'm honestly at a loss as to what you are looking for. We need "meaning, context, a world that exists as a resource" - what would provide that? Setting books? They exist. Flavor and background content is scattered through the books and magazines, in ever increasing quantities. Is it just more advice you want, in DM books, on helping character's develop as part of the 'Temporal World'?</blockquote>

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