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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5420720" data-attributes="member: 87792">That's possibly poor wording.&nbsp; But is no different from &quot;When you attack, you roll an attack roll.&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp; Explaining the meta and mechanical rules.&nbsp; And being taken by some as the be all and end all when they have as much in character meaning as THAC0&nbsp;&nbsp;Just a long time and computer assistance would have been extremely useful.&nbsp; Seriously, the square of the cube root of an Imperial measurement - and estimating volumes in cubic feet (I have no idea how many cubic feet a car is).&nbsp;&nbsp;And every single thread on how 4e is bad for roleplaying has come up with the same arguments - that having social skills is detrimental to roleplaying, that not having detailed skills of the level of 4e is detrimental to roleplaying, and generally arbitrary issues.&nbsp; The only criticisms that make sense that I've ever seen and that don't slam prior editions (normally either 3e or OD&amp;D) harder than 4e come from the Indy Gamers asking for aspects.&nbsp;&nbsp;So if level has any useful feature, it is a measure of the power level of the character.&nbsp; Iron Man can beat up Tony Stark.&nbsp; Equipment is a part of that power level - and there has always been an expectation of equipment.&nbsp; (Made explicit in the WoTC editions, but implicit in prior ones). &nbsp;Also by focussing exclusively on AC, you miss other measures of defence.&nbsp; Hit points being the obvious one.&nbsp; A level 1 wizard with a charisma of 10 has (IIRC) 20 hit points and gains 4 per level.&nbsp; His hit points double first in 5 levels, then in a further 10.&nbsp; A level 1 AD&amp;D wizard has an average of 2.5 and gains an average of 2.5 per level.&nbsp; His hit points double first in 1 level then in a further 2, then in a further 4; far, far faster than in 4e.&nbsp; (3e hit point doubling is more complex due to constitution boosters).&nbsp;&nbsp;To confirm, because we appear to be getting tangled, I see a quantitative increase in power in 4e.&nbsp; In older editions for casters, there's a qualitative difference.&nbsp; Fly is not simply a beefed up version of levitate.&nbsp;&nbsp;Some circumstance modifiers apply.&nbsp; If they have problems hearing you.&nbsp; But the ones for demeanor are already included in that stupid table.&nbsp; Hostile means 'willing to risk their own life and limb to hurt you'.&nbsp; At that point the only further they could go is magical mind control.&nbsp; So sure you can add additional circumstance modifiers for making the diplomancer breathe helium or a language barrier.&nbsp; But it is every bit as hard coded by the rules as jumping distances.&nbsp;&nbsp;The specific actions are as open as they are from Charm Person.&nbsp; Making someone friendly... Making them not attack.&nbsp; How they do this is another matter.&nbsp;&nbsp;No expenditure of resources.&nbsp; No making the situation worse.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 5420720, member: 87792"] That's possibly poor wording. But is no different from "When you attack, you roll an attack roll." Explaining the meta and mechanical rules. And being taken by some as the be all and end all when they have as much [I]in character[/I] meaning as THAC0 Just a long time and computer assistance would have been extremely useful. Seriously, the square of the cube root of an Imperial measurement - and estimating volumes in cubic feet (I have [I]no idea[/I] how many cubic feet a car is). And every single thread on how 4e is bad for roleplaying has come up with the same arguments - that having social skills is detrimental to roleplaying, that not having detailed skills of the level of 4e is detrimental to roleplaying, and generally arbitrary issues. The only criticisms that make sense that I've ever seen and that don't slam prior editions (normally either 3e or OD&D) harder than 4e come from the Indy Gamers asking for aspects. So if level has any useful feature, it is a measure of the [I]power level[/I] of the character. Iron Man can beat up Tony Stark. Equipment is a part of that power level - and there has always been an expectation of equipment. (Made explicit in the WoTC editions, but implicit in prior ones). Also by focussing exclusively on AC, you miss other measures of defence. Hit points being the obvious one. A level 1 wizard with a charisma of 10 has (IIRC) 20 hit points and gains 4 per level. His hit points double first in 5 levels, then in a further 10. A level 1 AD&D wizard has an average of 2.5 and gains an average of 2.5 per level. His hit points double first in 1 level then in a further 2, then in a further 4; far, far faster than in 4e. (3e hit point doubling is more complex due to constitution boosters). To confirm, because we appear to be getting tangled, I see a quantitative increase in power in 4e. In older editions for casters, there's a qualitative difference. Fly is not simply a beefed up version of levitate. Some circumstance modifiers apply. If they have problems hearing you. But the ones for demeanor are already included in that stupid table. Hostile means 'willing to risk their own life and limb to hurt you'. At that point the only further they could go is magical mind control. So sure you can add additional circumstance modifiers for making the diplomancer breathe helium or a language barrier. But it is every bit as hard coded by the rules as jumping distances. The specific actions are as open as they are from Charm Person. Making someone friendly... Making them not attack. How they do this is another matter. No expenditure of resources. No making the situation worse. [/QUOTE]

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