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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mallus" data-source="post: 5423883" data-attributes="member: 3887">Fair enough. But what makes you confident these examples define contemporary play? Why are your bad experiences (and the bad experiences you've read about) somehow more representative than my good experiences (and the positive ones I've read about)?It's like you're holding selection bias up as a virtue. Well, I'd like to think my group is the exception, that we can turn dross into gold, that we're exceptionally smart, creative, and, hell, let's go all-in and say charming and handsome, too. It would certainly be ego-satisfying.But it's more likely that we're not so special, that 4e play runs a wide gamut, much like play using the editions which preceded it, that plenty of other gamers run intelligent, creative, and challenging games with 4e.I mean, there's a lot of evidence of good 4e play here in ENWorld, too. Unless you automatically discount it because it disproves the conclusion you're aiming for. I'm not pretending anything, Bryon. I know full well that I'm repeating myself, asking the same questions I've asked before, participating in the same debates, etc. So sue me <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> If you'd like to sit this round out, no worries.I think it's always worth asking questions like "what kind of mechanical support for role-playing do you prefer/require?" and "what does role-playing mean to you?". Sure, the responses often run the gamut from the repetitive to the contentious (and repetitive!), but there's usually some real insight into our hobby to be found in such, ahem, classic and long-running debates. Mine, either. Our 4e campaign is a fine blend of problem-solving and fictional world-exploring (and, umm, fantasy-themed absurdist satire and grid-based tactical wargaming).Maybe we're just especially smart and creative people? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />What Ariosto's description of 4e encounter design sounds like to me is the puzzle room design found in many of the classic AD&D modules. Set up a dungeon 'room', decide on the proper solution or solutions to overcome/bypass it, then list as many solutions that won't work --usually magic spells/items-- to force the players into the designers 'approved' solution path.</blockquote>

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