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<blockquote data-quote="incognito" data-source="post: 549470" data-attributes="member: 7008">Endur: And to end that class's effectiveness, I present the spell: Protection from elements.Spatula: &nbsp;What is that?&nbsp; So elf wizard's should have a strong reflex save too?&nbsp; Taking a PrC class one level later (or even two levels later) to end up with a PC with healing ability, evasion, sneak attack, good saves, good AC, etc, etc, etc. is what a Mary Sue is all about. Being 'good' at everything.Will a straight fighter be able to use a wand of cure critical wounds?&nbsp; Will a straight fighter be able to take NO damage from a fireball?&nbsp; How about tumble or move silent, etc, etc, etc.&nbsp; See? Good at everything.&nbsp; All it takes is four levels of fighter to get weapon spec. all it takes is three levels of Rouge to get the evasion/uncanny dodge business.&nbsp; Clerical domain powers (as we all know) are not created equal, some scale, some are good right off the bat.Taking the Dwarven Defender does cost feats - which is good!&nbsp; If it did not, we would not be having this discussion, it would simply BE broken.&nbsp; What I am saying (over, and over, and over, it seems) is that designing a charcter to take a prestige class, and starting from Level N, where N is close to the level the need to satisy the requirements or A PrC is cheaty.&nbsp; And that **some** PrCs are cheaty period.&nbsp; Although the player has to deal with some possible sub-optimal feats, or skills (although maybe not in the case of our Buddy the Arcane Archer), if you create a character around the PrCs powers, then it is easy to become a Mary Sue.Let's see how many Lawful dwarves who start at L1 end up DD's</blockquote>

[QUOTE="incognito, post: 549470, member: 7008"] Endur: And to end that class's effectiveness, I present the spell: [i]Protection from elements.[/i] Spatula: What is that? So elf wizard's should have a strong reflex save too? Taking a PrC class one level later (or even two levels later) to end up with a PC with healing ability, evasion, sneak attack, good saves, good AC, etc, etc, etc. is what a Mary Sue is all about. Being 'good' at everything. Will a straight fighter be able to use a wand of cure critical wounds? Will a straight fighter be able to take NO damage from a fireball? How about tumble or move silent, etc, etc, etc. See? Good at everything. All it takes is four levels of fighter to get weapon spec. all it takes is three levels of Rouge to get the evasion/uncanny dodge business. Clerical domain powers (as we all know) are not created equal, some scale, some are good right off the bat. Taking the Dwarven Defender does cost feats - which is good! If it did not, we would not be having this discussion, it would simply BE broken. What I am saying (over, and over, and over, it seems) is that designing a charcter to take a prestige class, and starting from Level N, where N is close to the level the need to satisy the requirements or A PrC is cheaty. And that **some** PrCs are cheaty period. Although the player has to deal with some possible sub-optimal feats, or skills (although maybe not in the case of our Buddy the Arcane Archer), if you create a character around the PrCs powers, then it is easy to become a Mary Sue. Let's see how many Lawful dwarves who start at L1 end up DD's [/QUOTE]

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