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Message: <blockquote data-quote="incognito" data-source="post: 552921" data-attributes="member: 7008">Hong: Ok then, finish with me!  Finshed?  My turn to rebutt.The MOST IMPORTANT THING that was missed in our past go round was that the Barbarian/Cleric/Ranger/Fighter is NOT going to be a DD.  Get it out of your head.  It' won't happen.I was comparing the abilities of a staright 7th level PC, as compared to a muti-class character.  Forget about high level - this is mid level DnD, and the muti-class character in this case has a wide variety of abilities that enable him to be good at most things. which is the definition of Mary Sue. WRT to your comments on HP.  You're right, on casual inspection, it seemd that I was saying HP are improtant, and NOT important. Allow me to clarify.  For a Tank, having tons of HP is more important than having a high reflex save.  When I say HP are not as important in the saving throw context, it is because you have so many, on EL/CR challenges will not be able to throw spells which casue a Reflex save for half damage to make a difference. You must also consider the ubiquitousness of spell that cure damage in 3E.  Bottom line, have lots of HP, and ready access to healing, Don't worry about the reflex save.  It is MORE important to cover your WILL save and you FORT save, which as I mentioned, becsaue they tend to be "save or die" sitiuations, where the # of HP makes little or no difference.Oh, and by the way Endure elements lasts 24 hours Hong.  Not that I don't make rules mistakes all the time, but I wanted to point it out becasue it is a pretty effective strategy for low level Cleric-muticlass characters to use.On to giants, dragons, and damage.  The damage I was quoting was the character fdamge - and we all know that monsters tend to do more damge than characters. No suprise.  AS I pointed out to Endur though, you can have hope (with the other party meember's support, or course) to fighting melee with a high Attack bonus creaure.I'll breifly mention that Dwarves are particularly effective against giants.  If they hit a properly armored dwarven melee type, it is by luck.Moving on Saying a +4 dodge bonus to AC does not help is pretty strange. I am fairl sure I coudl come up with a non far fetches scenario in which any near EL encounter could not hit (except on a 20) a DD (who also has +1 AC from dodge, and general +1 AC bonus at low level .  At higher level it gets to +3/+4!  SO not I can have an additional AC bonus of +7/+8 - like an extra set of plate mail! that is effective against tough ac, and incorporeal attacks.   Seems pretty good to me.I'll give you a possible high level breakdown of AC.+5 shield (+7), +5 dwarven plate (+13), +3 DEX (max), +5 ring of protection, +5 amulet of natural armor, +1 dodge, +4 defensive stance, +3 AC bonus form DD, and Haste (+4).  Some of those "+5's" can come from magic vestment, rather than a cash outlayThat's  AC: 55 Let's say this character is 15-16th level (so he can have enough $$$ to afford these goodies).  An "old" Blue dragon is truly a fearsome foe at CR17. and at +1 to +2 ECL, one of the more horrifying things a PC will face at this level.The Total 'to hit bonus' of an dragon of this age category is +35. He needs a 20 to hit you.  And that's if he does not power attack.  (dragon's being arrogant, often do in my world).  If you could corner him/it, the DD could toe to toe all day long (or as long as haste lasts, anyway...Finally - yes, the DD will not be casting heal, but living long enough to stay alive for heal is pretty handy, no?  And out good buddy the Barbarian2/Ranger1/Fighter2/Cleric2 - well, he can use a wand, and if your worried abotu the expense, think about how costly dying is (one level)...but in mroe seriousness, it cost $21K for a fully charged wand of cure serious.  That much is true, but in terms of chracter wealth, you ar emore liely to have one with only 5 or 10 charges on it - which is significantly less expensive.  And just as usefull, until it runs out...awaiting your rebuttal - and I have to say - I enjoy your posts - that are pretty well written, and point out where I have bneen remiss in explanation, though I disagree with some of your precepts.</blockquote>

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