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Message: <blockquote data-quote="incognito" data-source="post: 554992" data-attributes="member: 7008">hong AND jdavis: First let me apologize for my typos - it can make my writing tought to follow sometimes, and that's irritating  -even to me <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f641.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":(" title="Frown    :("  data-smilie="3"data-shortname=":(" />Second -for every example I provide, you provide me with a tangential counter example:  First, you state there was no way for a melee tank to survive in combat.  I provide you with an example of one that a +2 ECL DRAGON has a tough time hitting.Then, hong tries to apply the DD template to a character clearly not meant to be a DD - and asserts that I am getting worked about a 4 class character.  I am not getting worked up about it -just pointing out that with certain class selections/combos players can become (or try and become) Mary Sue's - and Hong, not all class abilities are created equal.  If I created a L1 Wizard/L1 Bard/L1Druid/L3Sorcerer, that PC would be pretty useless.My point: optimizing based purely on granted abilities, and pursing Prestige classes based on granted abilities, especially when not beginning play from first level is Poor  Poor, Poor.Hong: What throws a 10d6 fireball at L7? Why wouldn't I use my daily spells to casts endure elements, and use a wand of cure light wounds (which cost's a mere 750 GP) to heal my damage...this is the 'readily availble sources of healing' I am referring to.Who is throwing around Heals at 7th level?Both Hong AND jdavid seem to think that one would go through a wand of cure critical (not cure serious, my error) for 4d8+7 quickly?  I think not.  Not if the tank paid attention to AC, which is what we are taking about here, isn't it?  Other note: I did not include AC that could be gleaned from expertise/Fighting defensively, which can help if you find your AC is not good enough.jdavis: I didn't say it before, but I'll say it now.  To bring 6, 3.2 Level characters against 2 Trolls is suicidal, even when properly prepared. Troll's should've easily caught your halfling, or ignored him.  If the party got out of there with 20-50% casualties, then I'd've agreed it was a real fight, but in my opinion the DM gave you that one.  Your ideas on "beatable" are probably no inline with others.  Come play at my table - and bring some back up character's.  Who knows? Maybe you'll surprise me.Why do you guys insist that the Tank will take it if he has the proper AC? Isn't haste, dodge (from defensive stance AND dodge Feat), DEX and Deflextion good against touch attacks?  Not at good as a high level Monk, I'll grant you, but not so shabby none the less.  It can work, I've seen it.  You give up **some** damage, and the trade off is, near ECL creatures cannot hit you but for a die roll of 19-20.  Eventually you will wear them down, or the other party memembers can take them down.jdavis also asks about money and ability socres.  With a ~28 Point buy you can get (before racial modifiers) STR: 15, DEX: 14, CON: 14, INT: 10, WIS: 12, CHA: 10  This is a "good" start for a DD.  CHA goes to 8, but CON goes to 16.  Good HP, not the best STR, but we are not trying to be a damage dealing machine here - that's over in another thread.Money wise - I did not even begin to get munchy/powergamish.   just straight forward items that protect.  Name a high level aprty that does not get hasted.  Name a high level melee fighter that does not get "magic vestments" cast on armor/shield, or both.Some are quick to quote dispel or greated dispel.  How many parties are NOT hurt by this?  Pointing out that this will "hurt" the charcter's AC is silly, and a poor arguing point.  It's like saying, what if the DD get's hit with a true striking, double empowered Enervation? - Hey, that WOULD suck - and there is almost nothing ANY character can do about this.In case I haven't mentioned this already - I do not like the DD character I have illustrated here - I am just pointing out that the PrC is attractive to Mary Sue players.  There's more to rebutt, but I am irritated enough that no one can concede or ackknowledge any of the points I have made - instead they illustrate tangential arguments, or "well, this one time..." type stories which are not indicative of typical encounters.Hong/jdavis - if you want to continue a meaningful dialog, at least give me this much credit - you asked me to provide some examples (without getting farfetched) of how certian types of character's operate, and why those combos are strong.  I've done so.If you each want to pick a more specific area to disagree with, and provide me with baseline, numerical, reasonably typical counter example, I will truly consider your what you have to say - I am not trying to be close minded. (edited for the obvious typos, I'm sure there are more)</blockquote>

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