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Message: <blockquote data-quote="jdavis" data-source="post: 557232" data-attributes="member: 8704">I'll give you credit for putting up a good fight but I haven't seen anything yet that changes my opinion on PRC's. I don't see where they are too powerful or allow for "Mary Sue characters" in any way any different than any other class or multiclass. I am of the opinion that players make the characters they want to make regardless of the options out there, I don't think that people playing Lawful Good Dwarven Fighters are all going to pick Dwarven Defender up because it is so powerful, that was what was implied.You give a example of something crazy and then point out that it can fight a certain monster as proof, I pointed out that I have been in simular encounters with my group, which is overly role play oriented, and survived. You don't like the troll encounter, fine but all I'm telling you is that it is not a no win situation, we fought the fight and won, it was a real tough fight and we were lucky to escape alive (characters did go down to negative numbers, but everybody was helped before they died), by the way the Halfling had one magic item, boots of striding and springing, he used them to full advantage to lead a angry Troll away from a fallen party member, sorry if that sounds like a imposibility to you. As far as the Dragon fight goes, yes the character can stand in there, but I couldn't figure out what the point was, he was designed to stand in there, the monster was a tough challenge but not compleatly overpowering, the character would be able to act in a way that is what you expect from a character who is called a Dwarven Defender, why was that special, how did that make Prestege Classes too powerful? I really am not trying to be a ass and I am very open minded about the subject but I have yet to see one actual fact that brings me to see where Prestige classes create overpowered characters. Every example I have seen leads me to believe that you view too powerful as being able to defeat monsters 1 or 2 EL's higher than the party average. The ability to win a hard fight does not mean that the game mechanics are broken, you can win hard fights without having any characters with prestige classes. How does the ability to win a winable fight make prestige classes too powerful? My party is full of characters between 12th and 15th level, nobody has any kind of magic armor more than a +3, none of the fighters use rings of protection, those are given to the magic using members of the party, we have never seen any magic item that gives more than a +3 to armor class, we have never used haste ( I have never seen haste being used ever.) Magic Vestments? nope never used them or heard of them for that matter (I think I might be misunderstanding what you mean by this but then again it just might be something we have never used), it's just not the way we game. Having +5 Dwarven Plate, a +5 ring of protection, a +5 shield and a +5 amulet of natural armor all on one character, is that normal and straight forward? I fear you might be powergaming and not realize it, not everybody plays the game the same way and things that might be normal in your games are not always normal everywhere, I cannot state what is normal but I got a clue that characters with 55 AC's are not. Once again I'll ask how does this make Prestige Classes too powerful?If you have read this far then I am sorry for being long winded, but I will reiterate my point for the million zillionth time, how does any of this make prestige classes overpowerful? Isn't the people who go to great lengths to figure out how to get away with this stuff the problem and not the mechanics of the prestige classes? I have not seen every prestige class and there are some that may be out of whack, but Dwarven Defenders? Shadow Dancers? no these classes are just specializations that allow you to do one thing well at the expense of other things.  I don't think we are all that far off on what we beileve here, it's just you seem to be blaming the Prestige Classes instead of the powergamers, there is no question that you can build powerful characters and I agree that people who take a prestige class in a attempt to max out the character are not acting in good faith to the role playing that should be involed, but that is a player problem not a game mechanics problem, there are a million ways to abuse the rules but not everybody chooses to do so.</blockquote>

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