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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Arcane Runes Press" data-source="post: 560431" data-attributes="member: 402">1) Yes, they are the same type of bonuses, but there's a world of difference in their versatility. The mobility factor is crucial - rage is applicable in far more situations than defensive stance. 2) The complaint about above 1st level starting PCs is a valid one, but it applies equally to core classes and PrCs. A character taken from 1st to 17th level is going to be a completely different animal than one created to be 17th level. An arcane caster built from 1st level is most likely going to have spells that are no longer optimal at 17th level - he might have Color Spray, or Magic Weapon, or Hypnotism, all of which are useful in low level adventures, but aren't great at higher levels. Heck, he might have Toughness since, as you pointed out, it's somewhat useful to very low level characters. Meanwhile, the 17th level caster has the luxury of taking only those spells which come into their own at high levels. Further, he can spend his feat slots grabbing up feats which are useless to lower level characters - He can use his 1st level slot to snap up Maximize Spell, for example, something an actual 1st level caster would almost never do.  He's also more likely to have magic items tailor made for his strengths and weaknesses, rather than an odd mix gained over 17 levels of adventuring. The same applies to the melee types. A 1st - 17th level fighter who wants to use a rapier to maximum effect has to wait and plan for 8 levels to gain access to the feat (Improved Critical) that really makes his weapon shine. Meanwhile, the starting at 17th level character simply has it, no muss and no fuss. 3) You said edge to the DD, that's what I was commenting on. I don't think they do have the edge. At best it's flat even, if you consider Spot to be of critical importance (which many people do). On the other hand, I consider Wilderness Lore to be a very important skill, as the vast majority of campaigns I have been a part of have involved a great deal of wilderness travel/adventure. Likewise, I think the 4 vs 2 skill points per level is a big consideration, as it makes the barbarian less of a 1 trick pony. Of course, I believe that all core classes should have a minimum of 4 skill points per level (with some PrCs having less), as it opens up greater character diversity.  Patrick Y.</blockquote>

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