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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 3659589" data-attributes="member: 4937">Ok, fine, if you want to go there, I did say that there were more than two possibilities.&nbsp; I would not argue that the last question you pose is the 'real question'.&nbsp; There are alot of real questions, and depending on how you answer them you get very different results when using shapechanging magic.1) Is gender identity intrinsic and immutable?&nbsp; 2) If gender identity is intrinsic, is it distinct from the material form of the being?&nbsp; That is to say, would you still have a gender if you didn't have a body?3) Can the distinctive genderness be different from the material genderness?&nbsp; That is to say can your real gender be different than the gender expressed by your body?&quot;'No, No, No&quot; is going to look really different than &quot;Yes, Yes, Yes&quot; or 'Yes, Yes, No&quot; or &quot;Yes, No, Yes&quot;, etc.For example, if the answer to '3' is &quot;No&quot;, then does one imprints the other or are they completely separate?&nbsp; If the intrinsic character (for example you answer &quot;Yes&quot; to '1') imprints the body, then its not possible to shapechange a man into a woman.&nbsp; If the body (for example you answer &quot;No&quot; to '1'), then when you shapechange a man into woman they lose thier original identity and become a new person.&nbsp; Effectively, the original person dies.&nbsp; And if they are completely separate, is this ever a natural condition?&nbsp; And if it is a natural condition, what should you do about it if anything?And that doesn't even go into the moral codes arising from this.&nbsp; I happen to know certain real world religions where different adherents would answer &quot;No, No, No&quot; and &quot;Yes, Yes, Yes&quot; and still arrive at the exact same code of behavior.&nbsp; So its entirely possible from that perspective that none of these are the 'real question'.&nbsp; &nbsp; But if we are going to go here, let's at least avoid the moral question in favor of the much less touchy, 'How would magic work?'</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 3659589, member: 4937"] Ok, fine, if you want to go there, I did say that there were more than two possibilities. I would not argue that the last question you pose is the 'real question'. There are alot of real questions, and depending on how you answer them you get very different results when using shapechanging magic. 1) Is gender identity intrinsic and immutable? 2) If gender identity is intrinsic, is it distinct from the material form of the being? That is to say, would you still have a gender if you didn't have a body? 3) Can the distinctive genderness be different from the material genderness? That is to say can your real gender be different than the gender expressed by your body? "'No, No, No" is going to look really different than "Yes, Yes, Yes" or 'Yes, Yes, No" or "Yes, No, Yes", etc. For example, if the answer to '3' is "No", then does one imprints the other or are they completely separate? If the intrinsic character (for example you answer "Yes" to '1') imprints the body, then its not possible to shapechange a man into a woman. If the body (for example you answer "No" to '1'), then when you shapechange a man into woman they lose thier original identity and become a new person. Effectively, the original person dies. And if they are completely separate, is this ever a natural condition? And if it is a natural condition, what should you do about it if anything? And that doesn't even go into the moral codes arising from this. I happen to know certain real world religions where different adherents would answer "No, No, No" and "Yes, Yes, Yes" and still arrive at the exact same code of behavior. So its entirely possible from that perspective that none of these are the 'real question'. But if we are going to go here, let's at least avoid the moral question in favor of the much less touchy, 'How would magic work?' [/QUOTE]

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