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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Majoru Oakheart" data-source="post: 6218761" data-attributes="member: 5143">I'm certainly not disagreeing that WOTC made a bunch of mistakes that hurt them.  I just think those mistakes wouldn't have cost them as much as they did had it not been for Pathfinder.  People are willing to tolerate some missteps when they are really invested in something.  People didn't invest in 4e because they had another option.I still maintain that other editions of D&D didn't have REAL competition.  When I played 2e D&D, we knew of the existence of Rolemaster, Palladium Fantasy, and the like.  No one seriously considered switching to any of them.  They weren't D&D.  D&D was the first and best game.  The rest, according to most people I knew were simply pale copies that got things wrong.We felt the same way while were were playing 3e.  It was the true heir to the crown...there were other games, but we always came back to the original.  Not only were we used to the concepts from D&D, but it invoked the flavor we wanted and there were always new players to play with when we needed them.  You could go into a gaming store and say "Anyone want to join my D&D campaign?" and get 3 offers to join.  Try that for any other game and get blank stares.I think Pathfinder was the first time that people looked at another game and said "Wait...that's just D&D with a different name.  I can play that."Perhaps.  I can't speak to that.  I just know that the hardcore LG community(the ones going to D&D Experience) were also the most hardcore D&D players in general.  These were the people who made trips to other cities in order to spend 72 hours doing nothing but playing D&D just so they could get their character some more XP.  I know, I was one of them.Most of them were "leaders" of the D&D community in general.  They were the DMs at their D&D gamesdays and local conventions.  They almost all had their own D&D groups with 6 players back home.In theory, if you convince these people, you convince the community at large.I'm sure there were other people outside of the con.  However, I think LG pretty much only attracts those who like gamist rules.  After all, we've agreed to a bunch of rules simply to play LG.  You get 52 Time Units and once they are gone your character can no longer adventure(and adventures took a minimum of 1 TU even if they lasted an hour of game time).  If you find a magic item in an adventure, everyone in the group can buy a copy of it...so that it's fair for everyone.  There is a GP limit on each adventure to make sure everyone advances at the same rate.  Gold over the limit simply vanishes.  No spell continues beyond the end of an adventure.People who were playing LG on a regular basis understood that some rules were allowed to be gamist to make sure everyone had a good time and that the game and entire campaign was balanced.It's certainly no coincidence that 4e ended up with the rules it did.  RPGA players were the majority of the primary playtesters.  The most common problems in Living Greyhawk were because of extremely open rules.  So, it isn't a surprise that LG players pushed for a system with more predictability.So, no, at least at the con, the only people who didn't like the system were people who were heavily invested in breaking the old one using their rules knowledge.</blockquote>

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