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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Petrosian" data-source="post: 73541" data-attributes="member: 1149">"It costs x amount to craft a ring. However that x is completely undefined. Its reasonable to assume that x could be a 'pile of gold' since the only MI that even comes close to defining exactly what you need is scrolls and that only says "a supply of choice writing materials" And that a wizard should be assumed to have or Where do the 2 free spells per level come from? "Marshall... not defining the specifc materials needed does not mean you turn GP into them. Nor does it mean you can ignore accessibility. Few of the items used listed for purchase in the DMg list what they are made from in specifics. They just list a cost. However last time i checked, no one was claiming masterwork healers kits are not subject to availability based on price and locale because the specific ingredients are not described.As for where the two free spells comes from, being free they fit within availability costs just fine. Now if you want to argue that wotc should not have made them free, and thus ubiquitous, thats a whole nuther thing."Well, again, Thank you for proving my point. You just named at least three different items for scribing spells into my spellbook. "When an "item" is listed as a single cost, and even when it is mentioned as being made up of various parts, the price given is used to determine availability. "Its impossible to prove a negative."I am not asking you to. I am asking you to support with one rule cite your "pile o coins" poof "magic item" claim... specifically that you turn coins into items and do not need to actually purchase materials. I have shown cites where materials are mentioned. You so far have shown nothing except how often you can say it is so." But on the other hand there are only oblique references to what that cost represents and nowhere does it even come close to saying that it should be considered one item(or Kit, if you want to be really cheesy) for determining availablity. In fact, if you consider that mundane spell components are always considered to be commonly available your argument falls flat. "Mundane spell components are buyable for 5gp which fits well within the availability rules. No problem.We are dealing with expensive components/materials here. "Actually there are several instances where parts of the various toolkits are seperated out and could easily "let them slip under the wire"."Huh? As far as i know if you want a MW tool kit you gotta buy a masterwork tool kit." Many of the masterwork craft tools have been seperated out and enchanted in MoF,"OK so now we are talking specific magic items. " restocking a MW Healers Kit doesnt require a town where it would normally be available... "Show me where this is stated? Show me where a MW tool kit would be available in exception to the availability rules based on price and size OTHER THAN rule-0.One cite."A: There has to be a rule to rule 0, and there are only item creation 'guidlines' "No one can follow the guidelines. Thats not rule-0."B: Yep, thats exactly the way it works. "Show me a cite. One line anywhere in the core books which says a pile o coins turns into a scroll.One cite.Not just you saying "thats how it works"one cite.you paid good money for those books.use them.one cite."Any rule to deny this? Nope. Any 'guideline'? Nope. Rule 0? Its all Rule 0. "Rule to deny this already cited... rules specifically referenceing the cost of materials needed and rules for purchases in DMG limiting availability based on locale and price. NO EXEMPTION exists for magical materials. If you intend to continue supporting that arcane tools (scribing stuff) and arcane materials (for items) are somehow ubiquitous and not subject to the same rules which apply to all other tools, equipment and materials purchases... you have to show us one cite saying this is so. If you are going to claim coins poof into spells and scrolls and swords... you have to show a cite."What the Holy Heck are you talking about?!? "You claim that because they only list prices and not materials coins turn into poof items... the example was a 25 gp scroll.they do not list materials for a pack and saddle either...so does this mean someone with a craft skill can turn coins into pack and saddle sitting under a bridge somewhere? No... it means he has to get somewhere and buy the materials to make a pack and saddle."Please show me where it says that 'ALL OTHER ITEM/EQUIPMENT/MATERIALS' includes the components for MI creation. "This is a joke right? Once you have the general rule, such as "availability of things is limited by price and locale" then you do not need to list everything it apllies to... instead you now note EXCEPTIONS.You are claiming an exception exists for magic items and for scribing stuff... yet i see no rule saying they are exempt.You even carry this to the extreme of poofing coins into swords... You need a cite to support this.The fact that, like most equipment, the specific exact materials needed are not listed and just a price is does not support making these arcane tools exempt and leaving all the others covered."But before that you'll have to show me What the components for MI creation are. "No i dont and neither do they. They dont tell you the specific component for sword making, for saddle making, for healers kit making, for alchemist fire making, etc etc etc .... they leave the specifics general and have general rules for availability based on cost and locale... anyway... unless you have a cite to support... i wont bother much more with you on this... I can argue or discuss rules but opinions ... thats anuther thing entirely.</blockquote>

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