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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 7183498" data-attributes="member: 48965">I don't disagree here and recognize spellcaster vs. not spellcaster is probably one of the major ways of differentiation in the game... But then I wasn't the one who claimed an EK wasn't differentiated from a BM (which in and of itself without some type of explanation besides blatant dismissal makes me even less willing to accept the premise)... I'm arguing the opposite and asking for an example of two subclasses that aren't really differentiated.  The issue seems to be this was never a thread to discuss the actual assertion but instead one where the assumption is already assumed to be true.I'll look at another 2 subclasses up to level 13 that are non-magical... Thief vs. AssassinThe thief can disarm traps, use sleight of hand, open a lock or interact with an object at a much greater speed than other Rogue subclasses.The thief becomes an expert climber... climbing costs no extra movement and his Dex increases his running jumpsThe thief gains advantage on stealth checks when only using half movementThe thief can use any magic itemThe assasin is proficient in the disguise kit and poisoners kitThe assasin gains advantage on attacks vs. creatures who haven't taken a turn yet and attacks with surprise are auto-critsThe assasin can, using time and money, create disguises and identities that do not failThe assasin can unerringly mimic the speech wirting and behavior of another personI'm not seeing how these two aren't differentiated, one is clearly better at avoiding traps, breaking into places, using the strange artifacts he may find and getting into or away from a heist... and the other deals in murder by surprise, catching victims unaware, and social deception.  I guess what I am saying is I can understand if you want more subclass abilities, that's a preference thing (like wanting more classes, or monsters, or feats) and not a "problem" with the game... but the stance that the subclasses don't server to differentiate and it is an actual  problem with the game doesn't seem, at least IMO, to be supportable or true..</blockquote>

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