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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6210382" data-attributes="member: 4937">The pathfinder rules aren't clearer.&nbsp; They require an enormous amount of interpretation (what happens if you try to create a disguise with one?).&nbsp; I know the SRD.&nbsp; It's not inaccurate.&nbsp; You gain the form and shape of the thing you change into and all the qualities that are intrinsic to having a particular shape, but you don't gain any of the qualities of BEING the new creature.&nbsp;&nbsp; So, if you have claws, they are functional as claws.&nbsp; If you have wings, they are functional as wings.&nbsp;&nbsp; And so forth.&nbsp; But none of that makes you into the new creature.&nbsp; You just have the shape of that creature.No, I'm not.It's not.Pathfinder makes it even more clear that you don't become the thing that you change into, though they tweaked it as you say to simplify the spell and also make it easier to balance.*sigh*&nbsp; It wouldn't be jarring if you just accepted what I'm telling you instead of trying to find a contradiction that isn't there.&nbsp;&nbsp; Maybe it doesn't turn your skin into chitenous armor.&nbsp; Maybe it just rearranges your bones so they are on the outside.&nbsp; In any event, even gaining the chitenous armor was a change in the spell instituted in 3.5.&nbsp; It didn't work that way in prior editions.&nbsp; They changed it so that you could gain natural armor to to sex up the spell... and promptly broke it, because gaining that much potential natural armor was way overpowered in a 2nd level spell.All of which are traits related to having a particular shape.&nbsp;&nbsp; I suggest you re-read the rules text.&nbsp; You gain quite a number of traits, but they are all traits related to having a particular shape.&nbsp;&nbsp; Why don't we read the 3e rules text straight from the PH:&quot;You alter your appearance and form - including clothing and equipment - to appear taller or shorter, thin, fat, or in between.&nbsp; The assumed form must be corporeal.&nbsp; Your body can undergo a limited physical transformation, including adding or subtracting one or two limbs, and your weight can be changed up to one half.&nbsp; If the form selected has wings, you can fly a speed of 30 feet with poor maneuverability.&nbsp; Your attack rolls, natural armor bonus, and saves do not change.&nbsp; The spell does not confer special abilities, attack forms, defenses, ability scores, or mannerisms of the chosen form.&nbsp; Once the new form is chosen, it remains for the duration of the spell.&nbsp; If you are slain, you automatically return to your chosen form.&nbsp; If you use this spell to create a disguise you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.&quot;That's really clear.Extraordinary is a technical term in 3.X D&amp;D.&nbsp; It basically means 'not supernatural'.&nbsp; Anything ability that is specific to a creature's being, but isn't supernatural, is extraordinary.&nbsp; I'm here making what I think is the obvious and consistent ruling - any aspect of reproduction that is more than mere shape and form is extraordinary, and therefore not acquired by a mere Alter Self.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 6210382, member: 4937"] The pathfinder rules aren't clearer. They require an enormous amount of interpretation (what happens if you try to create a disguise with one?). I know the SRD. It's not inaccurate. You gain the form and shape of the thing you change into and all the qualities that are intrinsic to having a particular shape, but you don't gain any of the qualities of BEING the new creature. So, if you have claws, they are functional as claws. If you have wings, they are functional as wings. And so forth. But none of that makes you into the new creature. You just have the shape of that creature. No, I'm not. It's not. Pathfinder makes it even more clear that you don't become the thing that you change into, though they tweaked it as you say to simplify the spell and also make it easier to balance. *sigh* It wouldn't be jarring if you just accepted what I'm telling you instead of trying to find a contradiction that isn't there. Maybe it doesn't turn your skin into chitenous armor. Maybe it just rearranges your bones so they are on the outside. In any event, even gaining the chitenous armor was a change in the spell instituted in 3.5. It didn't work that way in prior editions. They changed it so that you could gain natural armor to to sex up the spell... and promptly broke it, because gaining that much potential natural armor was way overpowered in a 2nd level spell. All of which are traits related to having a particular shape. I suggest you re-read the rules text. You gain quite a number of traits, but they are all traits related to having a particular shape. Why don't we read the 3e rules text straight from the PH: "You alter your appearance and form - including clothing and equipment - to appear taller or shorter, thin, fat, or in between. The assumed form must be corporeal. Your body can undergo a limited physical transformation, including adding or subtracting one or two limbs, and your weight can be changed up to one half. If the form selected has wings, you can fly a speed of 30 feet with poor maneuverability. Your attack rolls, natural armor bonus, and saves do not change. The spell does not confer special abilities, attack forms, defenses, ability scores, or mannerisms of the chosen form. Once the new form is chosen, it remains for the duration of the spell. If you are slain, you automatically return to your chosen form. If you use this spell to create a disguise you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check." That's really clear. Extraordinary is a technical term in 3.X D&D. It basically means 'not supernatural'. Anything ability that is specific to a creature's being, but isn't supernatural, is extraordinary. I'm here making what I think is the obvious and consistent ruling - any aspect of reproduction that is more than mere shape and form is extraordinary, and therefore not acquired by a mere Alter Self. [/QUOTE]

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