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<blockquote data-quote="grodog" data-source="post: 5017004" data-attributes="member: 1613">That would be me:&nbsp; I like Melan's model a lot, and wondered if he has done any further maps analysis projects, since it's been awhile.&nbsp; Edit:&nbsp; erm, I was thinking of Melan's thread @ <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/168563-dungeon-layout-map-flow-old-school-game-design-7.html" target="_blank">http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/168563-dungeon-layout-map-flow-old-school-game-design-7.html</a> sorry.Yes, I think that helps clarify the distinctions you're making, Bullgrit.&nbsp; I guess what I'm saying is that some of the modules you're classifying as mission modules can transform easily, with some expansion on the DM's part (and as encouraged within the module's designs), from mission modules to perpetual modules---regardless of whether they're a classic mega-dungeon format like Castle Greyhawk.&nbsp; To expland on that a bit more:&nbsp; the drowic underworld offered in G3 and D1-3 is a vast underground wilderness, through which the PCs will (usually) follow a narrow grey-shaded march from the SE to the NW; once they complete their mission to stop the giants and those behind them, or perhaps even during it, they may wander &quot;off the path&quot; of the published content, at which point they've entered the larger perpetual module environs of the drowic underworld.&nbsp; The design of the underworld map fully-encourages this exploration, and the GDQ1-7 supermodule even provides sketch details for many other possible encounters in that underworld.&nbsp; The DM has to design this content, of course, so that's part of what I feel like you're also calling out as a design flaw---that the module &quot;ends&quot; at the &quot;edge&quot; of the grey-shaded areas, whereas in a Castle Greyhawk or Maure Castle or other mega-dungeon, that there isn't really an undefined &quot;edge&quot; per se.&nbsp; Am I characterizing that properly?Relatedly, while I agree that a good mega-dungeon overall design isn't designed to be completed and should definitely support repeated forays into it, good players will set missions and goals within the scope of that perpetual dungeon environment, too:&nbsp; &quot;today we're back into the fortress to rescue the slave girls we left in the secret room when we had to bug out, then we'll try to capture/kill Cragen.&quot;&nbsp; So the idea of &quot;mission&quot; strikes me again more as a trait that's set in the background or in PC goals rather than the mission being an absolute definition for any module, per se.&nbsp; Did that make sense? <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/glasses.png"&nbsp; class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt="B-)" title="Glasses&nbsp; &nbsp; B-)" data-shortname="B-)" /></blockquote>

[QUOTE="grodog, post: 5017004, member: 1613"] That would be me: I like Melan's model a lot, and wondered if he has done any further maps analysis projects, since it's been awhile. Edit: erm, I was thinking of Melan's thread @ [url]http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/168563-dungeon-layout-map-flow-old-school-game-design-7.html[/url] sorry. Yes, I think that helps clarify the distinctions you're making, Bullgrit. I guess what I'm saying is that some of the modules you're classifying as mission modules can transform easily, with some expansion on the DM's part (and as encouraged within the module's designs), from mission modules to perpetual modules---regardless of whether they're a classic mega-dungeon format like Castle Greyhawk. To expland on that a bit more: the drowic underworld offered in G3 and D1-3 is a vast underground wilderness, through which the PCs will (usually) follow a narrow grey-shaded march from the SE to the NW; once they complete their mission to stop the giants and those behind them, or perhaps even during it, they may wander "off the path" of the published content, at which point they've entered the larger perpetual module environs of the drowic underworld. The design of the underworld map fully-encourages this exploration, and the GDQ1-7 supermodule even provides sketch details for many other possible encounters in that underworld. The DM has to design this content, of course, so that's part of what I feel like you're also calling out as a design flaw---that the module "ends" at the "edge" of the grey-shaded areas, whereas in a Castle Greyhawk or Maure Castle or other mega-dungeon, that there isn't really an undefined "edge" per se. Am I characterizing that properly? Relatedly, while I agree that a good mega-dungeon overall design isn't designed to be completed and should definitely support repeated forays into it, good players will set missions and goals within the scope of that perpetual dungeon environment, too: "today we're back into the fortress to rescue the slave girls we left in the secret room when we had to bug out, then we'll try to capture/kill Cragen." So the idea of "mission" strikes me again more as a trait that's set in the background or in PC goals rather than the mission being an absolute definition for any module, per se. Did [I]that [/I]make sense? B-) [/QUOTE]

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