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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Iron Sheep" data-source="post: 451572" data-attributes="member: 4965">It's definitely not Lawful behaviour, the kidnapping is Evil, and the whole thing is bloody stupid on the part of the PCs.As far of the rules question of killing the hostage with subdual damage, it's not outside the rules to have a subdual strike kill someone on a critical.  If you think about it, all subdual damage above the character's hp total gets converted to actual damage, so a 2 hp commoner can be killed outright by 14 points of subdual damage, which is a far from unreasonable damage for a critical from a sword.  If something like this happened, then it's unlucky for the players, but it is how the rules read.As far as the actions of the PCs are concerned, kidnapping an innocent for the purposes of blackmail so that you can break a justly imprisoned friend out of gaol can in no way be described as Lawful.  A Lawful approach to the problem would have been to approach the authorities and ask for clemency or leniency because it was a first offence; to make restitution to victims; or otherwise to work within the system.The actions are almost certainly Evil as well.  Stealing for fun is certainly not Good: you are harming another for no reason than your own amusement.  How Evil it is probably depends on the circumstances of the victim.  Stealing a starving family's last loaf of bread for fun is Evil, stealing a few copper pieces from the wealthiest family in town, just for the fun of it, is far less Evil, and is probably within the accepted range of behaviour for a CN character, for example.Kidnapping an innocent for extortion is Evil.  The characters seem willing to harm an innocent bystander simply for expediency (this was the quickest way to resolve the problem).  That this innocent bystander was killed was not intentional, which mitigates somewhat, but at the very least it shows a callous disregard for that person's health and wellbeing (why use a sword to subdue if you care about someone's wellbeing?).Perhaps more importantly, the death makes it far harder for the characters to atone for their actions.  It's far easier to make recompense for theft and kidnapping than murder.The only way that this could fail to be Evil in the D&D sense is if there were some extreme circumstances which the original poster didn't mention.  If, for example, the town where this happened was under a tyrannical regime, and the daughter of the official was not merely benefiting from it, but was actively involved in the imposition of the tyranny; and the rogue's thievery was of a minor nature and being punished with a lack of due process and unreasonable severity; and the PCs knew all this; and the plan had some vague hope of success; then maybe in the D&D scheme of alignment it wouldn't be Evil.  But if something this extreme were the case, I think that the original poster would have mentioned it.A Good way to deal with the problem would be to make sure that anyone who the thief stole from was given restitution, and to perform "public service" acts to atone.  Or perhaps simply to bribe the official (which would not be Lawful, but could be consistent with CG) to obtain their compatriot's release.  Or, of course, to simply let the thief take whatever fair punishment was due and move on.As a GM, I'd be unhappy with the roleplaying that would lead to Lawful and Good characters even consenting to going along with a scheme like this.  It seems driven by metagame thinking ("we have to get out of here, so lets try and resolve this as quickly as possible"), and not by the way that an unselfish or law-abiding character would act.I'd also be a bit peeved with the apparent lack of thought by the players when conceiving the scheme.  On the face of it, the plan looks like a surefire recipe for disaster, even had it worked perfectly.  I would have hinted at this if I were GMing a group which wanted to do this sort of thing; although if they'd gone ahead with anyway it I would have let the chips fall where they may.In my experience, when players come up with this sort of plan, it smacks of player frustration at the current situation.  Again, if I were GMing this situation (the justly captured thief) and the players weren't having fun with it, I'd be tempted to put things on "fast forward" and encourage the players to just let events unfold so that we could get on with the main thread of the adventure.  Something like "A week passes, the rogue is convicted and sentenced to a day in the pillory for his crimes.  The next morning you are met by a bruised and smelly rogue, and are free to go about your business.  Although you do notice that the guards are watching you like hawks."Of course these are just my thoughts.  I don't stress alignment in my own games, and I certainly wouldn't force alignment changes.  But in this sort of situation I'd be asking players if they thought that they had the right alignment for their character.</blockquote>

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