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<blockquote data-quote="Spatzimaus" data-source="post: 455617" data-attributes="member: 3051">Okay, my vote (hey, it's election day, everyone gets to do it):1&gt; The theft was Chaotic, not Evil.&nbsp; It violated the law of the land.&nbsp; Attempting to get the thief released would be somewhat chaotic as well, although not enough to ruin alignments.2&gt; The kidnapping was evil.&nbsp; Kidnapping is always a violation of the victim, and trying to sugar-coat it is just sad.&nbsp; If the victim is an innocent, it is just plain evil evil.&nbsp; If the victim is not an innocent, it's a &quot;prisoner of war&quot; and must be treated humanely until it is either returned to its home or tried under your laws.&nbsp; Still evil, but justifiable, societally-accepted, LAWFUL evil.From the first post, it seems the daughter was an innocent; she was being abducted because of who her father was, not because of anything she had done.Frankly, if I was the DM I would have stopped the adventure there, screamed &quot;WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU THINKING????&quot; at the players, rewound the clock by half an hour, and tried again.&nbsp; It's called a &quot;Mulligan&quot;, and everyone needs them.3&gt; Killing the child was evil.&nbsp; If it had been intentional, I would have found a new group of players on the spot, because at that point it's the PLAYERS that are evil.&nbsp; But, even unintended, and even if they thought the rules didn't allow for it, their actions were evil.&nbsp; They chose to do something that no &quot;good&quot; code of conduct would ever allow, and they did it solely because they thought they could get away with it under the rules of the game.Story time:About ten years ago, I was playing in a Shadowrun campaign that the DM had crossed with other games to end up with an Amber-type setting.&nbsp; One night, we're all in a bar, and one of the players (let's call him Doug) decides to take a walk.He walks into a dark alley, rounds a corner and sees two men.&nbsp; A man in dark clothing, holding a very ornate and obviously magical dagger, is standing over the unconscious body of a man dressed in white.&nbsp; The man in black turns to him and tells Doug he'll give him anything he wants if he takes the dagger and kills the man on the ground.Doug says &quot;Hmm, gimme a motorcycle.&quot;&nbsp; The man in black says &quot;Sure.&quot;&nbsp; Doug stabs the man in white, killing him.At this point, the rest of us are sitting around either in dumbfounded silence, or screaming &quot;YOU CLUELESS %*&amp;$&quot; at him.&nbsp; Doug, on the other hand, is trying to explain how his (Lawful Good-type) player shouldn't be penalized since he didn't know who the guy on the ground was.It went downhill from there.&nbsp; If I recall correctly, I punched him to death, he got resurrected, and then was turned into a coffee table by a friend of the ex-man in white.&nbsp; But, he DID get a nice motorcycle out of it.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Spatzimaus, post: 455617, member: 3051"] Okay, my vote (hey, it's election day, everyone gets to do it): 1> The theft was Chaotic, not Evil. It violated the law of the land. Attempting to get the thief released would be somewhat chaotic as well, although not enough to ruin alignments. 2> The kidnapping was evil. Kidnapping is always a violation of the victim, and trying to sugar-coat it is just sad. If the victim is an innocent, it is just plain evil evil. If the victim is not an innocent, it's a "prisoner of war" and must be treated humanely until it is either returned to its home or tried under your laws. Still evil, but justifiable, societally-accepted, LAWFUL evil. From the first post, it seems the daughter was an innocent; she was being abducted because of who her father was, not because of anything she had done. Frankly, if I was the DM I would have stopped the adventure there, screamed "WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU THINKING????" at the players, rewound the clock by half an hour, and tried again. It's called a "Mulligan", and everyone needs them. 3> Killing the child was evil. If it had been intentional, I would have found a new group of players on the spot, because at that point it's the PLAYERS that are evil. But, even unintended, and even if they thought the rules didn't allow for it, their actions were evil. They chose to do something that no "good" code of conduct would ever allow, and they did it solely because they thought they could get away with it under the rules of the game. Story time: About ten years ago, I was playing in a Shadowrun campaign that the DM had crossed with other games to end up with an Amber-type setting. One night, we're all in a bar, and one of the players (let's call him Doug) decides to take a walk. He walks into a dark alley, rounds a corner and sees two men. A man in dark clothing, holding a very ornate and obviously magical dagger, is standing over the unconscious body of a man dressed in white. The man in black turns to him and tells Doug he'll give him anything he wants if he takes the dagger and kills the man on the ground. Doug says "Hmm, gimme a motorcycle." The man in black says "Sure." Doug stabs the man in white, killing him. At this point, the rest of us are sitting around either in dumbfounded silence, or screaming "YOU CLUELESS %*&$" at him. Doug, on the other hand, is trying to explain how his (Lawful Good-type) player shouldn't be penalized since he didn't know who the guy on the ground was. It went downhill from there. If I recall correctly, I punched him to death, he got resurrected, and then was turned into a coffee table by a friend of the ex-man in white. But, he DID get a nice motorcycle out of it. [/QUOTE]

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