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<blockquote data-quote="smbakeresq" data-source="post: 6994388" data-attributes="member: 28301">I understand it's a design choice but it's a poor one.&nbsp; What other class has an option as simple as the Champion?&nbsp; Is the idea to stick a new player with Champion only?&nbsp; The Monk to me is just as simple as the Champion is but with much more variety and interesting things.&nbsp; The Rogue takes one session to explain to someone then they are good to go. Champion is too simple, and I have yet to play with someone who wants something that simple.&nbsp; Most new players don't even want to be fighters, they want something more fantastic. I play with kids though mostly. One of the things I admired about 4e is that fighters had good powers with great names that attracted players to the class.&nbsp; BM has this somewhat.&nbsp; If you played 4e though you remember stuff like Tide of Iron, Come and get it, Thicket of Blades, etc.IME though players who want to be Melee types choose Barbarians or Paladins as they are very thematic compared to the Champion.&nbsp; The Champion doesn't even read as a interesting class in the PHB.&nbsp; I do think it's an easy fix though, some better powers disguised as feats to be taken with those extra feat slots.Champion now though is mostly a dip class for crit fishers, which is fine.&nbsp; Any changes to that would have to take place after 4th level to account for that.As far as effectiveness a Champion is just behind the BM once they get those dice going.&nbsp; This is really true at the levels people mostly play, which is 3 through about 14.&nbsp; Level 20 comparisons are useless IMO, how much game time is spent there?Off the top of the head if the Champion moved its second fighting style to early levels, it would make sense and be a more defining feature.&nbsp; Remarkable athlete thing changed to Heart of a Champion (or in addition too) and make it apply to all saving throws might be neat, make that the level 10 feature.&nbsp; Less than monks ability but still good.&nbsp; This would also free up feats that would be used for Resilient into more combat oriented feats.Sent from my iPhone using <a href="http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=93205" target="_blank">EN World mobile app</a></blockquote>

[QUOTE="smbakeresq, post: 6994388, member: 28301"] I understand it's a design choice but it's a poor one. What other class has an option as simple as the Champion? Is the idea to stick a new player with Champion only? The Monk to me is just as simple as the Champion is but with much more variety and interesting things. The Rogue takes one session to explain to someone then they are good to go. Champion is too simple, and I have yet to play with someone who wants something that simple. Most new players don't even want to be fighters, they want something more fantastic. I play with kids though mostly. One of the things I admired about 4e is that fighters had good powers with great names that attracted players to the class. BM has this somewhat. If you played 4e though you remember stuff like Tide of Iron, Come and get it, Thicket of Blades, etc. IME though players who want to be Melee types choose Barbarians or Paladins as they are very thematic compared to the Champion. The Champion doesn't even read as a interesting class in the PHB. I do think it's an easy fix though, some better powers disguised as feats to be taken with those extra feat slots. Champion now though is mostly a dip class for crit fishers, which is fine. Any changes to that would have to take place after 4th level to account for that. As far as effectiveness a Champion is just behind the BM once they get those dice going. This is really true at the levels people mostly play, which is 3 through about 14. Level 20 comparisons are useless IMO, how much game time is spent there? Off the top of the head if the Champion moved its second fighting style to early levels, it would make sense and be a more defining feature. Remarkable athlete thing changed to Heart of a Champion (or in addition too) and make it apply to all saving throws might be neat, make that the level 10 feature. Less than monks ability but still good. This would also free up feats that would be used for Resilient into more combat oriented feats. Sent from my iPhone using [url=http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=93205]EN World mobile app[/url] [/QUOTE]

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