Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 5171719" data-attributes="member: 2011">Yes, this type of thing can happen.If the DM wants to set up a cardboard mega-villain to be wiped in 4 rounds.But, if the DM wants to challenge the players, the DM knows of all of these abilities of the PCs. He doesn't have to have specific counters against them, he just needs to play the villains smart with some simple techniques.PCs cannot do 1000 hit points each (actually most PCs cannot do that anyway, even at 26th level without being super optimized) if the villain doesn't just stand in front of them to get hit.The creature is for all intents and purposes a god. Allowing him to be killed in 4 rounds by fighting the PCs up close is, IMO, inferior DMing. He shouldn't be just a bunch of stats from Dragon magazine, he should have traps and magic items and escape routes and henchmen that give their lives for him. He should significantly separate the PCs so that their x range multi-PC buff powers affect fewer PCs cause they are out of range and so that he can teleport across massively large areas in order to focus fire on a single PC. If the PC Leader does not give the PC Striker a chance to attack 5 times in a round with bonuses, then the Striker will be doing less damage.The moment Yeenoghu's half damaged is the moment he should be gone, coming back with reinforcements that really challenge the players. Baphomet has been trying to kill Yeenoghu for many millennium and the PCs waltz in and wipe him in 4 rounds using the same combinations and powers that they have been using for several levels. The DM knows their abilities and the foes he is sending against them. He should know how quickly the PCs can kick butt and how many points of damage they can dish out per round, regardless of whether they are super optimized or not.Play him like a 2nd level grunt Hobgoblin if you all like, but Yeenoghu has an Int of 21 and has millennium of experience. He should outmaneuver the PCs easily. That includes arranging it so that their mega-damage rounds are less effective.And it also means that Yeenoghu never even bothers using his Triple Flail attack except for Opportunity Attacks. Even Hyena Strike combined with Ribbons of Flesh is a joke set of actions at Epic. 55 average points of damage against two PCs, that is if both attacks hit, at level 26 is a total waste of time. The Rogue does 300 points in a turn, but the Villain only average 110 and that not against a single PC?PCs do have a lot of serious firepower at Epic levels, especially if the DM allows them to work as a close unit team. To challenge them, the DM has to have epiphanies in his challenges. Otherwise, it's 4 rounds of "Wow, we killed a god. Next.". And the Encounter XP charts in the DMG fall apart at high Paragon and Epic levels if the DM doesn't play the villains smart. As written, there are extremely few Epic level creatures that are any serious challenge for similar level PCs. The DM has to take that extra set of steps to make it more difficult with the exact same encounter foes for the players.The villains have to minimize the number of attacks that the PCs can do against them and maximize their own attacks. This is what the players are doing. The players have (typically) had many levels and many encounters to improve their tactics. The DM has to put the work in to have his villains have the same set of advantages (be that tactics, terrain, magic items, allies and/or whatever), otherwise, the synergy of the PC abilities will win out nearly every time.Yes, 4 26th level PCs can do a lot of damage. I just find it odd that the DM allowed them to do so. That was approximately an N+5 encounter if the soldier was level 26. That's 83,000 XP for 4 26th level PC or more than 20% of a level gained each in 45 minutes in 4 rounds, especially with it not being the first encounter of the day. Something is wrong with that. It should have been an Epic fight. Not 45 minutes and 4 rounds. I'm surprised that other people don't see that.</blockquote>

Verification