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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mesh Hong" data-source="post: 5171830" data-attributes="member: 73463">Well this thread has moved on a bit. Epic level PCs are literally Epic. There is not much they can’t do if they set their minds to it. The middle world pretty much becomes their play thing, those people that have heard of them should generally know better than to oppose them (and would be better off trying to help them) and those people that don’t know them are going to regret it and pay for their ignorance. Even the planes have much to fear from Epic PCs, and as the PCs hit mid Epic the list of possible threats starts to get smaller and smaller until you suddenly realise that this small group of individuals can shift the cosmos with their collective effort. Only the Gods and creatures of similar power have any hope of influencing them. But even the Gods will realise that they have something to lose by meddling with such powerful individuals, so any contact they have with the group could have disastrous consequences. This of course is where the plot steps in to justify some sort of threat. This is also where Epic destinies really show their significance by adding substance to the threat and adding context to the amount of power that the PCs are wielding (usually as a blunt instrument). Chzbro; I completely understand that your group can be that powerful and you humiliated a Level 28 solo. KarinsDad; I completely understand that Yeenoghu is poorly designed as an important Epic solo threat. Epic Solos need to act more than once in a round. They NEED to, just to try and keep up with the PCs level of violence and chained attacks. The other important thing that Epic enemies have in their arsenal is access to the plot. This may sound a bit crude but take a step back and you will see that this means that they have the experience and opportunity try to manipulate a situation to their advantage. From what they know of their enemies (the PCs). Plot bad guys should try to divert and manipulate the PCs by working against their power bases or relationships in an attempt to weaken their reputation and support structures. The most important contextual change in an Epic level campaign is the way that the PCs can literally shape the middle world and influence the cosmos, and the consequences and repercussions of every one of their actions. PCs should be very aware that their actions may change the universe in major or unexpected ways. An example from my campaign is that the PCs needed a section of an artefact that was held in an important temple of Tiamat, guarded by an Exarch of Tiamat. They went there, destroyed the Exarch and took the fragment, a few days later 3 elder red dragons arrived at their hometown (while they were elsewhere) and raised it to the ground. When they realised this they returned to the smouldering rubble, killed two of the dragons (one got away), and immediately started preparing to track the dragon back to its family roost and kill all its kin (Something I am sure they are capable of). This is a family of dragons that have been known about since early heroic tier. They also gathered over 400 wizards and clerics (using their reputation and contacts) and devised a raise dead ritual that brought back 1500 townsfolk in one go. They have subsequently learned that pockets of radiant energy have started to appear in the shadowfell, since they did the ritual. The group also had a communication from another plot PC who reminded them that they do not have a long time to collect the entire artefact. Which prompted them to put the revenge against the dragons on hold and get on with what they were meant to be doing. The above is just a quick example that Epic PCs can do anything they want, but every action they take has some sort of consequence. If they then start reacting to the consequences instead of following a plan they can quickly get diverted away from their goals. Anyway none of this has anything at all to do with grind, other than I suppose that players shouldn’t be concentrating on what they are doing but more why they are doing it. Grind is in the mind.</blockquote>

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