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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 5172201" data-attributes="member: 2011">Actually in a way, yes.The reason this was not perceived as grindy to the player was because the DM did not challenge the players. He threw a 28th level lamb to the 26th level wolves. The NPCs which should have gotten 2 turns per round actually averaged less than 1 turn per round. The DM knows the capabilities of the PCs, so he pretty much knew that this particular N+5 encounter wasn't going to be a threat unless Yeenoghu got lucky and stunned all of the PCs on round one and mostly kept them that way.But, the encounter really was grindy. It just didn't seem that way because it was so short.This was 6 creatures for 4 rounds or 24 turns in 45 minutes. That's almost 2 minutes per PC or NPC turn.Two PCs were stunned on round 1, so the PCs lost 2 turns there. The Soldier was taken out in round 1, so at least 4 and maybe 5 NPC turns were lost there. Yeenoghu was stunned at least one round, so 1 or more NPC turns was lost there.That means that it was 17 (or fewer) actual turns where a creature got to act.17 creature turns in 45 minutes is almost 3 (and maybe more) minutes per turn. That's abysmally slow on average.Sitting around for 3 minutes for each PC's or NPC's turn is not that noticable in a 45 minute encounter.It's a nightmare in a more typical 6 or more round encounter. In a 5x5 encounter where the PCs cannot just lock down the NPCs (and vice versa), that's a half hour per round for the first 3 or 4 rounds until NPCs start dropping and an encounter that might easily last 2.5 or more hours.I don't know about your definition of grind, but a 2.5 hour encounter where the average PC or NPC is taking 3 minutes per turn is extremely grindy and boring to me, regardless of how well crafted and interesting the encounter might otherwise be. And a major part of this can be attributed to 4E design.Part of this issue is caused by the number of options each player has (not just spell casters like in 3E, but non-spell casters as well) at Epic level.Each 26th level PC has 17 inherent powers, 10 of which are attacks. The PC might also have 3 or more Daily powers off of items. There could also be conditional aspects due to feats or other items. This adds up.This example was used by Chzbro to illustrate that the game does not have to be grindy, even at Epic level. This is true if you want to play a game where the PCs start mopping up against an N+5 encounter in round one and are not significantly challenged. So to me, it seems like an extreme example and not a typical one. At least not a typical one in the games I've played as DM or player where the BBEG is supposed to kick the snot out of the PCs for at least some significant portion of the encounter and the players are supposed to overcome that snot kicking. That's why they are called BBEGs and not Tough Minions.</blockquote>

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