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<blockquote data-quote="Obryn" data-source="post: 5173324" data-attributes="member: 11821">So what is it that you're looking for here?&nbsp; Yes, some people think 4e combat takes too long, and some people think it gets grindy.&nbsp; Others don't.&nbsp; Some have found that some fights grind, and others don't.&nbsp; Some of us have found that efficiency and party construction go a long way towards making sure we don't experience grind.This doesn't mean it's a fatal flaw in the system.&nbsp; It means that people want and expect different things from their RPG combats.&nbsp; 4e is designed so that most combats will take about an hour to resolve, with rich tactical options and lots of player choice.&nbsp; This gels with my experience.&nbsp; If this is not the amount of time you want to spend on combat, and if you don't want deep options, there are both tweaks available (-HP/+dmg) and other systems.&nbsp; 4e is not the best game for every group.I don't think you'll find that people who are enjoying the system and enjoying combats other than a few possible burps here and there will agree with you that it is fundamentally flawed at the system level.You keep bringing up Masterplan and other combat trackers.&nbsp; Why?&nbsp; Do you not trust my assertion that I was running combats just fine before I started using it as a play aid?&nbsp; It's exactly like using Character Builder for building characters - a program to make an otherwise easy process almost effortless.It seems like you're looking for affirmation that grind is all the system's fault, and that you're not at least partly responsible for your own enjoyment.&nbsp; And spending a lot of time trying to convince people who don't find it problematic that it's deeply flawed.&nbsp; What are you looking for here?I have no problem believing that you find 4e combats grindy, and would rather play something else.&nbsp; But your experiences are not universal.-O</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Obryn, post: 5173324, member: 11821"] So what is it that you're looking for here? Yes, some people think 4e combat takes too long, and some people think it gets grindy. Others don't. Some have found that some fights grind, and others don't. Some of us have found that efficiency and party construction go a long way towards making sure we don't experience grind. This doesn't mean it's a fatal flaw in the system. It means that people want and expect different things from their RPG combats. 4e is designed so that most combats will take about an hour to resolve, with rich tactical options and lots of player choice. This gels with my experience. If this is not the amount of time you want to spend on combat, and if you don't want deep options, there are both tweaks available (-HP/+dmg) and other systems. 4e is not the best game for every group. I don't think you'll find that people who are enjoying the system and enjoying combats other than a few possible burps here and there will agree with you that it is fundamentally flawed at the system level. You keep bringing up Masterplan and other combat trackers. Why? Do you not trust my assertion that I was running combats just fine before I started using it as a play aid? It's exactly like using Character Builder for building characters - a program to make an otherwise easy process almost effortless. It seems like you're looking for affirmation that grind is all the system's fault, and that you're not at least partly responsible for your own enjoyment. And spending a lot of time trying to convince people who don't find it problematic that it's deeply flawed. What are you looking for here? I have no problem believing that you find 4e combats grindy, and would rather play something else. But your experiences are not universal. -O [/QUOTE]

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