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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Estlor" data-source="post: 2164156" data-attributes="member: 7261">I'm not sure how much I can add to this discussion without crossing over boundary lines, but I'll make an attempt anyway. I think the paladin described herein suffers from two things that keep him from being a true paladin - misogyny and fatalistic doubt. And by that I mean 1) he had no respect for women and 2) he doesn't believe in his calling. The problem is there is a lot of hair splitting going on here. In an attempt to define a paladin's code we're arguing over the definition of evil in a manner similar to defending something by saying, "Well, that all depends on your definition of 'is.'" Instead of looking at the words of the code, look at the spirit of it. A paladin is a champion of the causes of order and morality as they relate to each other, hand-picked by a god and blessed with powers beyond the scope of a normal fighter. In some cases a cleric is much more a "weapon of the gods," but (IMHO) it seems like the cleric is more the warrior of the god's church and the paladin is more the warrior of the god. A RAW support of this is found in the mechanics that permit a cleric of a LG god to be NG or LN, but a paladin chosen by a LG god must be LG.  The important thing about the paladin is it's not just about what's legal or what's moral to him. It's about supporting an environment in which morality guides law and law affirms morality. A modern example would be seat belt laws. You might say, "What business does the government have in telling me how I should drive me car?" But the philisophical root of that law is that 1) seatbelts save lives and 2) it's the responsibility of an enlightened government body to protect its citizens, often from themselves. Now a paladin isn't a nanny or a babysitter. They know that not everyone is called to the same level of pious virtue that they are. No one is perfect (not even the paladin, though they're close), and everyone sins (in the D&D good/evil padagrim sense) from time to time. That's why a paladin doesn't promote a nanny-state in which they lead and strictly administer rights to others to prevent them from doing something "evil." A paladin recognizes that certain things are amoral - drinking, sex, dancing, gambling, rock music - and, in a healthy state these things do not need to be outlawed or condemned. However, the important thing to remember is that a paladin's state of grace is as important to them as the grace of those around them. Like I said, certain things are amoral. However, if they exist or are used in an irresponsible manner, they become temptors. No doubt you've heard of the term "gateway drug." The idea behind that is that cigarettes and alcohol may be legal, uncontrolled substances, but the use of such increases one's likelihood to use illegal, uncontrolled substances. Likewise, irresponsible use of alcohol can also lead to other harmful behaviors such as casual sex or vehicular accidents. (Warning: Here's the most religious thing I'm going to say) A paladin, as a bastion of order and morality in an immoral, chaotic world, is obligated to avoid such acts that would place his immortal soul in peril. To put it secularly, he tries to avoid the temptation to break his oath. Going back to Cedric, our example "paladin," he is currently in a state of casual sex and wanton drinking. Let's look into his motives. At the brothel, Cedric sleeps with any number of women and hints at wishing to do the same with the madam, but he tempers this act by healing the girls and providing them with funds. Good act? What are his motivations? Does he go to the brothel to heal the girls and donate money freely? No. He goes to the brothel to have sex and heals while he's there anyway. He's not worried about those girls, he's worried about satiating his ever present lust. And before you bring up the money, the money he pays is irrelevant. A paladin who aids the poor does so without seeking anything in return. A paladin that acts according to the RAW (and to the expanded understanding of the RAW found in the BoED) would pay the money, heal the girls, tip his hat, and move on to the tavern for the night. At the tavern, Cedric knocks back pint after pint while talking about the futility of his task. His drinking is not problematic. Chances are he drinks because he's a depressed fatalist. He genuinely believes that someday he is going to die and, no matter how much good he achieves in the meantime, it all means nothing because he can never succeed. He's turned to drinking to cope with the quiet times when he isn't killing sinners or womanizing about the town. That's neither a selfless nor a sacrificing attitude for a supposed bastion of morality and order chosen by a god to act as the arm of goodness on the Prime. He isn't inspiring those around him to strive for a higher cause or a greater good. If anything he would inspire them to turn away and take up the cause of hedonism - "Squeeze every last drop out of life, son, because some day you'll be dead and it won't matter. Tonight we drink!" Cedric is a perfect example of an ex-paladin. He hasn't fallen, he's just fallen away. Something must have happened to splinter his understanding of the world around him to make him doubt the purpose of any of it. Maybe, someday, he can pull it back together and return to his state of grace, but for now he's the grizzled old drunk at the bar that tells stories of how things used to be. YMMV, of course.</blockquote>

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