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<blockquote data-quote="woodelf" data-source="post: 3333720" data-attributes="member: 10201">IOW, &quot;D20 System&quot;. If you need to distinguish between D20 System games that abide by the D20STL and those that don't, there are several handy terms you could use: &quot;D20 System-logoed&quot;, &quot;D20-logoed&quot;, &quot;D20STL&quot; (as in shorthand for &quot;D20STL-using&quot;), just to name 3 that come immediately to mind, and are perfectly accurate.My objection is not that his statement is necessarily impeding communication in this context--though, really, we don't know, since some people in this thread (and others i've participated in) seem to be genuinely under the misapprehension that OGL==D20 System, and are unaware of other OGL game systems. (Or, for that matter, unaware of other ogls.) But i might be misreading them. The problem is that, in the larger context, similar usage of the terms is impeding communication. We have a couple natural terms--D20 System, OGL--that could be used plainly, but often aren't. After all, why not use &quot;D20 System&quot; to mean &quot;games using the D20 System&quot;, and &quot;OGL&quot; to mean &quot;games using the OGL&quot;? instead of using &quot;OGL&quot; to mean &quot;games using the D20 System that don't bear a D20 System logo&quot; and &quot;D20 System&quot; to mean &quot;only those D20 System games that bear a D20 System logo&quot;. And, given the ease with which &quot;D20STL&quot; can be used as shorthand for &quot;D20 System game using the D20STL&quot;, i don't see any need to narrow the obvious definition of &quot;D20 System&quot; just to mean that exact thing [which already has a name]. Outside of a marketing context, i see no benefit to distinguishing between those D20 System games that bear the logo, and those that do not. It is *not* a measure of sameness, in either mechanics or setting, nor of compatibility--there are D20 System-logoed games that are very different from D&amp;D3[.5]E, and there are non-logoed games that are just about identical mechanically.Also, if &quot;OGL&quot; is used to mean &quot;D20 System game, released under the WotC OGL, but not using the D20 System logo&quot;, what term should i use if i want to discuss the group of games released under the OGL, regardless of system? I'm not going to give in to lousy, imprecise and/or misleading terminology, just because a few people don't know any better, or can't be bothered to use clearer terms.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="woodelf, post: 3333720, member: 10201"] IOW, "D20 System". If you need to distinguish between D20 System games that abide by the D20STL and those that don't, there are several handy terms you could use: "D20 System-logoed", "D20-logoed", "D20STL" (as in shorthand for "D20STL-using"), just to name 3 that come immediately to mind, and are perfectly accurate. My objection is not that his statement is necessarily impeding communication in this context--though, really, we don't know, since some people in this thread (and others i've participated in) seem to be genuinely under the misapprehension that OGL==D20 System, and are unaware of other OGL game systems. (Or, for that matter, unaware of other ogls.) But i might be misreading them. The problem is that, in the larger context, similar usage of the terms [b]is[/b] impeding communication. We have a couple natural terms--D20 System, OGL--that could be used plainly, but often aren't. After all, why not use "D20 System" to mean "games using the D20 System", and "OGL" to mean "games using the OGL"? instead of using "OGL" to mean "games using the D20 System that don't bear a D20 System logo" and "D20 System" to mean "only those D20 System games that bear a D20 System logo". And, given the ease with which "D20STL" can be used as shorthand for "D20 System game using the D20STL", i don't see any need to narrow the obvious definition of "D20 System" just to mean that exact thing [which already has a name]. Outside of a marketing context, i see no benefit to distinguishing between those D20 System games that bear the logo, and those that do not. It is *not* a measure of sameness, in either mechanics or setting, nor of compatibility--there are D20 System-logoed games that are very different from D&D3[.5]E, and there are non-logoed games that are just about identical mechanically. Also, if "OGL" is used to mean "D20 System game, released under the WotC OGL, but not using the D20 System logo", what term should i use if i want to discuss the group of games released under the OGL, regardless of system? I'm not going to give in to lousy, imprecise and/or misleading terminology, just because a few people don't know any better, or can't be bothered to use clearer terms. [/QUOTE]

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