D&D 4E Wound/Vitality in 4E

[KidSnide]

I'm curious, is anyone aware of someone writing up a Wound/Vitality system for 4e?

I really like how healing surges play as a game, but -- like some others -- I sometimes have trouble figuring how what's going on in the game world. Then it occurred to me that - thematically - 4e healing (and healing surges) in some way feels closer to Vitality points than it does to the type of hit points that don't come back automatically after an extended rest.

So I imagined a system in which PCs have vitality points equal to the number of hp they get under 4e and a number of wound points equal to their bloodied value. When PCs run out of vitality, they start taking wounds and become incapacitated. When their wound points get to zero, they die.

Essentially it works exactly the same as regular 4e, except that -- when they get healed -- it doesn't automatically heal their wounds. Wound points would only get healed by healing checks at an extended rest or daily non-surge healing magic (like Cure Light Wounds).

In the fiction of the game, vitality points is all about defensive energy and luck. When you get bloodied, that's just superficial damage that might take down a lesser person but you can fight through. Anything that is a serious wound takes you down until someone yells "back on your feet, soldier." Because a PC is tougher than your average bear, if you have healing surges, you can fight through the wound at decent effectiveness (just like regular 4e), but that doesn't cure the wound itself and a seriously wounded PCs has to worry about death more, but that doesn't force the character to sit out of the fight.

I'm curious what others think...

-KS

 

[Mort_Q]

This a discussion that is likely more suited to the House Rules forum.

That said I like the current mechanic, but wouldn't mind wounds, or the like, for flavour.

They shouldn't actually cause hardship to the characters, but perhaps could affect skill challenges... or get sympathy from the local girls, or whatever.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I'm curious, is anyone aware of someone writing up a Wound/Vitality system for 4e?

The House Rules forum is always a good guess, I am not sure if there are any GSL products that do that, either.

Personally I like to use "Bloodied" and "0 hit points or less" as a marker for injury gains. Maybe Bloodied as a "chance for lasting injury" and "0 hit points" as the realization of an actual wound.

So, whenever you get bloodied, you write down: "Possible Wound", maybe determining a hit location. When reduced to 0 hit points, the wound - or one of the wounds - actually is inflicted. What kind of penalties, if any, might apply to a wound is something to be worked out.

 

[Camelot]

I have seen many attempts at a wound system, but I have not been satisfied by any of them. Some are good in idea, but in practice would either hurt your character too much or not have enough effect to be worth keeping track of. Most are attempts at making 4e more simulationist, and are just broken.

However, I wouldn't mind seeing an official wound system if the beach mages put enough thought into it. It would need to be good enough that it doesn't make the game harder but also is worth implementing. It's just something that I think a team of developers who know the game in and out could do better than most EN Worlders.

Even so, I'd say see if you can think of something yourself. You never know, you might come up with an awesome idea. I might start along the line of battle scars, things that may hurt at times but can also give you bonuses, like: You gain a +2 bonus to Intimidate checks, but if you are hit by a critical hit while granting combat advantage, you are dazed until the end of your next turn.

 

[Wepwawet]

Personally I like to use "Bloodied" and "0 hit points or less" as a marker for injury gains. Maybe Bloodied as a "chance for lasting injury" and "0 hit points" as the realization of an actual wound.

I like this!
I'd add that whenever one gets an actual would (0 hp) he'd loose a healing surge permanently, that could only be regained the way the OP suggests

 

[DanmarLOK]

Definitely give it some thought, there are a big handful of put forth ideas on the subject. One thing to keep in mind is the Death Spiral effect. Where the characters end up with penalties as a result of taking damage (something they're supposed to be doing) This makes it more likely they'll take more damage which gives them more penalties infinity.

Also any wound system penalizes defenders and front line melee far more than ranged classes which can make those classes less enjoyable for the player if he's constantly hobbling on one leg and holding a dagger in his teeth because his arms are broken and out of surges because they haven't had time to cast a ritual to get them back. While Arty in the back with the bow is going "Suck it up, you don't hear me whining."

 

[KidSnide]

Personally I like to use "Bloodied" and "0 hit points or less" as a marker for injury gains. Maybe Bloodied as a "chance for lasting injury" and "0 hit points" as the realization of an actual wound.

Also any wound system penalizes defenders and front line melee far more than ranged classes which can make those classes less enjoyable for the player if he's constantly hobbling on one leg and holding a dagger in his teeth because his arms are broken and out of surges because they haven't had time to cast a ritual to get them back. While Arty in the back with the bow is going "Suck it up, you don't hear me whining."

I've thought about using Bloodied as a marker for possible injury, but I've veered away from that for the precise reason that it hurts a bunch of characters who are "supposed" to get bloodied. Not only does it penalize defenders because taking damage is part of their job, but also think of shifters or dragonborn who need to be bloodied in order to use some of their special abilities.

A wound system based on dropping below 0 hit/vitality points doesn't have the same problem. At least in my experience, defenders become bloodied a lot more often than other characters, but dropping below 0 is a more evenly distributed affair because non-defenders go down so much faster when the bad guys team up on them. (Archer rangers are, of course, the special exception to this because they have unusually good defenses for a ranged-only build.)

-KS

 

[Turtlejay]

The general forum had a thread about the necessity of HP's that explored some of these same ideas.

I agree with the general opinion that adding penalties to wounded characters has the danger of becoming a 'death spiral', where stacking penalties make it harder and harder to recover. Kind of like Frodo at the tail end of his adventure, he had racked up so many Affliction, Addiction, Fatigue, and Paranoia points that he could hardly walk, and resting did not remove any of them. He had to spend some serious time recovering under the care of Gandalf to even be able to function again.

Jay

 

[Amaroq]

The House Rules forum has had a couple good threads on this kind of topic in the last two months; there was one specifically about wounds, one studying humanoid hit points in monsters, and a third looking at a "Deathblow" critical, all of which touch on many of the same issues, such as penalizing the defender who is "supposed" to be out there drawing fire.

Personally, our group is using an "opt in" wounds system as described in the wounds thread, where its the player's choice to accept a wound, scar, or other modifier for their character; doing so has some negative in-game effect (mobility, diplomacy, etc) but also a tangible positive reward (action points, intimidate, etc).

 

[Saeviomagy]

You could always do it the way that earthdawn did: if you take more than a certain threshold of damage in a single hit, you accumulate a wound. You could make it "if you take more than your bloodied value in a single hit, you are wounded" or something similar.

I'd make wounds on the order of "-1 to skill checks involving your left arm" or "-1 to attacks in a round where you move 4 squares or more": something that the player can take actions to avoid the penalty. The aim is to make them something the player thinks about without crippling him utterly.

As to how to remove them? It has to be something more than just an extended rest, but I don't know what. Perhaps remove 1 per extended rest?