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<blockquote data-quote="Dausuul" data-source="post: 4635705" data-attributes="member: 58197">Uh... hardly.&nbsp; My group wrapped up 3.X with a 16th-level mini-campaign whose final battle was against a tarrasque (CR 20).Now, we were 32 point buy, so that made us effectively 17th level, which should have made it a tough but doable fight.&nbsp; It was nothing of the kind.&nbsp; We blew through the tarrasque like (to quote OotS) a crossbow bolt through a wet character sheet.&nbsp; And we didn't pull any of the usual tricks you use on the tarrasque - we didn't fight it from the air, we didn't trap it in a pit and drown it.&nbsp; We just went head to head, mano a mano, beating its hit points down exactly the way you're supposed to.It wasn't even an all-caster party.&nbsp; We had a psion, a mystic theurge (me), a swordsage, and a paladin.&nbsp; Not only that, my mystic theurge was a favored soul/sorceror.&nbsp; Hardly the ideal combination... but optimizing our builds and using clever synergies let us dish out crazy amounts of damage, while severely limiting the tarrasque's ability to counterattack.&nbsp; None of us was ever in serious danger.In an earlier campaign, we had a 20th-level party (21st if you count point buy) battling it out with a CR 27 templated dragon.&nbsp; The party consisted of a warblade, a sorceror, a ranger/scout, a knight, and the sorceror's favored soul cohort.&nbsp; CR 25 or 26 should have been an even fight for us.&nbsp; CR 27 should have been a potential TPK, right?Wrong.&nbsp; We crushed the dragon even faster than the other party did the tarrasque.&nbsp; There was no contest whatsoever.Now, we probably wouldn't have been able to squeeze out that much extra performance at 10th level.&nbsp; Nevertheless, in 3.X, build and optimization can let a party perform several levels higher than expected.&nbsp; Higher point buy certainly counts for something, but it's small compared to what you can get by tweaking your character design.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Dausuul, post: 4635705, member: 58197"] Uh... hardly. My group wrapped up 3.X with a 16th-level mini-campaign whose final battle was against a tarrasque (CR 20). Now, we were 32 point buy, so that made us effectively 17th level, which should have made it a tough but doable fight. It was nothing of the kind. We blew through the tarrasque like (to quote OotS) a crossbow bolt through a wet character sheet. And we didn't pull any of the usual tricks you use on the tarrasque - we didn't fight it from the air, we didn't trap it in a pit and drown it. We just went head to head, mano a mano, beating its hit points down exactly the way you're supposed to. It wasn't even an all-caster party. We had a psion, a mystic theurge (me), a swordsage, and a paladin. Not only that, my mystic theurge was a favored soul/sorceror. Hardly the ideal combination... but optimizing our builds and using clever synergies let us dish out crazy amounts of damage, while severely limiting the tarrasque's ability to counterattack. None of us was ever in serious danger. In an earlier campaign, we had a 20th-level party (21st if you count point buy) battling it out with a CR 27 templated dragon. The party consisted of a warblade, a sorceror, a ranger/scout, a knight, and the sorceror's favored soul cohort. CR 25 or 26 should have been an even fight for us. CR 27 should have been a potential TPK, right? Wrong. We crushed the dragon even faster than the other party did the tarrasque. There was no contest whatsoever. Now, we probably wouldn't have been able to squeeze out that much extra performance at 10th level. Nevertheless, in 3.X, build and optimization can let a party perform several levels higher than expected. Higher point buy certainly counts for something, but it's small compared to what you can get by tweaking your character design. [/QUOTE]

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