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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 1186609" data-attributes="member: 2011">Assuming a CHA of 26 at 20th level, that would be 56 spells at +1 (10 of which are nearly worthless 0 level spells), so 46 spells at +1 or +46. At +4, that would be 10 spells (1 of which is a nearly worthless 0 level spell), so 9 spells at +4 or +36.However, to gain this big +46, the sorcerer had to forego all other spell schools (which will practically cripple the sorcerer and he will not survive to 20th level, he will not be versatile enough). On top of that, although he has more spells, each of them have a 3 lower DC which means that they will not work as often. Hence, he has to cast more spells to get the same effect.Overall, +4 to 10 spells is much more potent than +2 to 2 skills and is also much more potent than +1 to 56 spells.You must be using the advanced math. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />The "weak saves" increase from +0 to +6 in 17 levels (i.e. by the time the sorcerer goes from level 1 to 18). That is an increase of 6, about +1 per 3 levels.The "strong saves" increase from +2 to +11 in 17 levels. That is an increase of 9, about +1 per 2 levels.The sorcerer, however, gains 8 spell levels from level 1 to 18. Again, almost +1 per 2 levels. And for every defensive item that opponents could gain, the sorcerer also could gain a CHA item AND he most likely increases his CHA at least twice and maybe as often as four times between levels four, eight, twelve, and sixteen.So ignoring items (where the sorcerer can and probably will have a bonus to CHA just like a different character could have a bonus to CON or DEX or WIS), the sorcerer will typically increase 9 or 10 on his highest level spell DCs whereas the strong saves will increase 8 to 9.Against weak saves, it is 9 or 10 versus 6 or 7.Granted, his lower levels spells do not do this good, but we are NOT talking about "weak saves" being a 90% save chance (as you claimed), not even against first level spells (DC 16 versus +9 is a 70% chance to save). Weak saves against 9th level spells will be DC 24 versus +9 or 30% chance. Even with SR, this save range does not go from 30%-70% up to 90%.Giving the sorcerer +4 to his DC drops these to 50% for a first level spell and 10% for a ninth level spell.Strong saves are DC 16 versus +14 against first level spells or 95%. They are DC 24 versus +14 or 55% for a ninth level spell.Giving the sorcerer +4 to his DC drops these to 65% for a first level spell and 35% for a ninth level spell. And since the sorcerer decides whether to throw a first level spell or a ninth level one, chances are that any DC spell against a tough opponent will be a higher level spell with a high DC.And remember, it takes merely a full round spell for a sorcerer to heighten any spell to ninth level and make the DC huge.But, the strong saves are not the issue. The weak saves are the issue. Many classes have one or two weak saves which makes defeating them extremely easy (especially if you heighten your spell, you throw Spell Focus in, etc.). A guy in heavy armor, throw a reflex save at him, a will save if you are sure he is not a divine spell caster.. A guy in no armor casting spells, throw a reflex save, a fort save if you are sure he is not a divine spell caster. You chances of success are big enough without the +4 DC. With the +4 DC, your chances are huge.Spell resistance, on the other hand, makes the save chances better, but think about what we are discussing. SR is a mechanism that few PCs or non-monster NPCs will have. Sure, high level monsters may or may not have it, but high level monsters that do have it are not SUPPOSED to be easily taken out or seriously damaged with a single spell. And high level NPCs with no spell resistance and weak saves will be like tissue paper.And yes, there are typically a few more defensive items than offensive items available in games. That does not justify allowing into the game a situation where same level opponents have a 5% or 10% or even a 20% chance to save versus death. That's lunacy.</blockquote>

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