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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 1187686" data-attributes="member: 2011">There is a major difference between the POTENTIAL for a given item to be created and for many opponents in a campaign having 3 or 4 such +5 items.You stated that getting to +15 to saves is easy. No, it is not. If a given NPC opponent has +15 on saves from items, the moment he dies, PCs typically acquire those items. If most of the NPC opponents have +10 or more to saves from items, then your campaign is in trouble because the PCs will walk around acquiring the most powerful save items right and left.Sure, the rules allow for the creation of such items, but if many of them show up in a campaign, the campaign will spire out of control, high powered campaign, low powered campaign, it does not matter.+4 DC is fine if the opposition often has +10 or +15 to saves from items. But, I doubt very much that even in your game, that this is the case.Well, you are good at arguing, but you are not so good at backing up your statements. Like I asked you before, which classes have immunities at low to mid levels?Sure, Protection From Elements results in basically an immunity, for all of 10 minutes per level. So if you happen to KNOW that a sorcerer is about to attack you and you happen to KNOW that he likes throwing fire spells and your initiative beats his, then sure, you can defend against fire spells if you have the Protection From Elements spell ready. But, what does Protection From Elements Fire buy you when his second spell is acid or electricity?Sure, Rogues can have Improved Evasion. Most sorcerers would be smart enough to not throw reflex save throw spells against lightly armored opponents who are not casting spells.The immunities are irrelevant to whether +4 DC is balanced or not. They do not happen often enough and even when they do, the sorcerer can change tactics to react to them, just like a sorcerer who does not have the Sorcerers Pact feat. The difference is that when the sorcerer who does have the Sorcerers Pact feat finds the weakness of his opponent, he is much more capable of taking advantage of it. His opponents defenses will be like tissue paper (as opposed to like cardboard for the sorcerer without the feat).Sure I did. A long time ago in this thread. I stated that +2 would be balanced instead of +4.Core rules do not do this. I showed you the math. Strong saves go up at the same rate as DCs. Weak saves go up slower. Since the sorcerer can evaluate a situation and decide what spells to cast, he, not the defender, determines what type of save and how powerful the DC (especially if he has the Heighten Spell feat).There is the possibility for items to offset this somewhat, but if you have them in the quantities where a +4 DC is no big deal, then yes, you are running a Monty Haul game. If you are just spouting off about what is possible (abet not probable), then you probably do not have many NPC opponents with +15 from items to all of their saves in your game.</blockquote>

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