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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lord Zardoz" data-source="post: 3920424" data-attributes="member: 704">The Necromancer / Lich story is a good one.  However, it is also a case of the players thinking that the Villain was on their side all along.  Still, any plan or plot that manipulates the players into doing something dangerous is always a good thing.I suppose that I am looking for a specific example of a Xanatos Gambit.  Using the example names of Xanatos and Bob. - Bob knows that Xanatos is a bad guy. - Bob learns that Xanatos is up to something - Bob tries to stop Xanatos by doing X - Doing X actually guarantees Xanatos either wins, or at least does not lose.The Wizard / Necromancer is not quite what I was looking for because they thought their ally was legitimate.  It takes a truly effective villain / plan to get the players to do what you want when they know exactly who you are.Also blargney, I like the page myself, simply because it provides a DM with a good shorthand vocabulary as well as specific examples that you can choose to emulate or avoid.  I especially like the 3 following terms concerning characters.Pet the Dog: To have a generally hateful character do something to make them at least somewhat likable.  <a href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PetTheDog" target="_blank">http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PetTheDog</a>Kick the Dog:  To show that deep down inside, a character is scum.<a href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KickTheDog" target="_blank">http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KickTheDog</a>Rape the Dog:  When a character commits an act that is so utterly depraved that the audience loses all sympathy for (and empathy with) that villain for good. There's no going back, no Pet The Dog moment will save them<a href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeTheDog" target="_blank">http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeTheDog</a>If you have a villain you want to transition to being an ally, you need him to 'pet the dog' a few times for the players to accept that he is now a good guy.If you need to demonstrate that a bad guy is very truly a bad guy, you need him to 'kick the dog'.If you have a villain that is no longer very effective, or you need to have a longtime ally become an irredemable villain, and you need to do it fast, that is when you have him 'rape the dog'.END COMMUNICATION</blockquote>

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