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<blockquote data-quote="iserith" data-source="post: 8165283" data-attributes="member: 97077">Not that I think it's a particularly good argument, but I would say rules for traps and secret doors are more specific than the general rules for Intelligence (Investigation) checks. So if we're going by the rules of specific beating general, I think I have the point.You also appear to be conflating tasks with checks which aren't the same thing. As I said upthread, a typical trap interaction isn't 3 checks - it's 3 tasks which may involve 0 to 3 checks. A rogue at 1st level in my game doesn't need to be an expert in all three tasks. He or she has other members of the party to find traps or figure out how they work or, failing that, work together with the rogue on those tasks which imparts advantage if there's a check. Further I'm not sure a 1st level character is really much of an expert at anything or why I should expect them to be.With regard to Investigation, I think the key word in the entry for this is &quot;make deductions.&quot; If you're looking around for clues that are hidden, they are hidden objects and Wisdom (Perception) applies if there is a check. Making a deduction about what those clues mean, once you've found them, is Intelligence (Investigation) if there is a check. I think to some degree how one interprets Investigation comes down to whether the group or DM comes from a tradition of D&amp;D 3.Xe where Search was an Intelligence-based skill used to find traps and secret doors. While I did play D&amp;D 3.Xe for 8 years prior to D&amp;D 4e, I cannot find justification within the rules I quoted above to use Investigation in this way.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="iserith, post: 8165283, member: 97077"] Not that I think it's a particularly good argument, but I would say rules for traps and secret doors are more specific than the general rules for Intelligence (Investigation) checks. So if we're going by the rules of specific beating general, I think I have the point. You also appear to be conflating tasks with checks which aren't the same thing. As I said upthread, a typical trap interaction isn't 3 checks - it's 3 [I]tasks [/I]which may involve 0 to 3 [I]checks[/I]. A rogue at 1st level in my game doesn't need to be an expert in all three tasks. He or she has other members of the party to find traps or figure out how they work or, failing that, work together with the rogue on those tasks which imparts advantage if there's a check. Further I'm not sure a 1st level character is really much of an expert at anything or why I should expect them to be. With regard to Investigation, I think the key word in the entry for this is "make deductions." If you're looking around for clues that are hidden, they are hidden objects and Wisdom (Perception) applies if there is a check. Making a deduction about what those clues mean, once you've found them, is Intelligence (Investigation) if there is a check. I think to some degree how one interprets Investigation comes down to whether the group or DM comes from a tradition of D&D 3.Xe where Search was an Intelligence-based skill used to find traps and secret doors. While I did play D&D 3.Xe for 8 years prior to D&D 4e, I cannot find justification within the rules I quoted above to use Investigation in this way. [/QUOTE]

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