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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jack Simth" data-source="post: 3819271" data-attributes="member: 29252">Yes; you can even use the formula in the DMG for multiple challenges in the encounter.  Two CR 2 challenges at the same time is an encounter level of 4 (and gives double the XP of a CR 2 encounter).Only if the trap's done the boring way (encountered in isolation with no time pressure).  All I'm pointing out is that there's other ways to do it.As there's a cleric spell that gives the caster a temporary ability to find traps as the Rogue does (and a bonus to Search to go with it), many of the other classes can get trapfinding temporarily as well.  Bards have Use Magic Device as a class skill, and so can get the spell off a wand/scroll.  A Cleric just casts the spell directly.  A Wizard, Sorcerer, or Druid can go into Loremaster to gain UMD as a class skill, and get the spell the exact same way as the Bard.  Anyone can take UMD cross-class and get it that way.  Any of those approaches is much a trapfinder as the rogue with Use Magic Device and a Wand of Cure Light Wounds is a healer.Which is obvious, and locates the trigger point of the trap - enough to get around.  That's the point of him.How's that a problem?  I'm assuming each trap found gets rid of an Unseen Servant (actually, at 50 charges for 20 traps, I'm assuming each trap found costs you two or three of them, either by trap-springing or expiring before a trap is encountered), and that the spell will need to be recast, after.  If you like, we can have a rope trail the bag of rocks, and just haul it back up.  A rope only runs about 2 gp.So we wander out of range and let it expire.  How's that a problem?As opposed to lugging the party tank around who may very well have a -10 Armor Check Penalty?   Or do none of your opponents ever have the spot and listen to catch a rogue that gets too far ahead?That's what the rat/snail is for.  Besides - any such trap will either be based on magic (and get found by the Wizard Concentrating on Detect Magic) or be a creature in hiding (which isn't properly a trap for a rogue to disarm anyway). Mostly I'm just pointing out that such metaphors are way too easily turned on their heads, and are best avoided.  He doesn't have to disarm it.  Once you know it is there, and you know the general nature of the trap, you can usually go around - even if this means digging through solid stone.Sound of combat is a DC 0 Listen check.  If the denizens of the dungeon know that invaders are bad for them, they'll be following the trail of bodies to the place where you fort up.  Your Hide/Move Silently check doesn't much matter for the scenarios I listed.  How often does your DM have half the dungeon come after you at once the first or second time you get into a fight, or the first time you stop for eight hours to rest and replenish?Besides - if they come at you in the hallway, it's a good thing; they're limited to basically one at a time.  Have the sparkcaster put some kind of barrier to guard the rear, then ready an action to disrupt or counterspell any spells or spell-like abilities; park the meatshield in front; put the healer wielding a polearm just behind the meatshield.  You'd be amazed how many critters you can successfully take on that way. If you're worried about it, have the Cleric cast Silence on a string, and put it around the bag.  It'll last for long enough to get from one room to another in any situation where the distance penalties to Listen aren't high enough that it doesn't matter anyway.    And with the 20 foot radius of the spell, vs. the 25+ foot range on the Unseen Servant, you can even avoid the effect overlapping the spellcasters.Yes, but can you <a href="http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0029.html" target="_blank">trust the rogue</a> who uses it?The point of the exercise is not that you can do it better than a rogue (I've repeatedly said a rogue can do it better, and for less), but that you don't necessarily need one to do the job.Which is, incidentally, something I've mentioned - repeatedly.Other than that you're phrasing point C in such a way as to imply that non-rogue trap solutions aren't usually possible (most traps can be bypassed by tunneling or other methods, and don't need to be disarmed), you're not wrong.  The point's that you solve the trap situation without the rogue in most cases, even if it is a bit more expensive (the more common method of non-rogue trap solutions is the "dwarven detection device" or "monk detection device" or even the "dwarven monk detection device").  The Unseen Servant with Bag O Rocks (and a few other things) is just the Wizard's solution.</blockquote>

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