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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jack Simth" data-source="post: 3828066" data-attributes="member: 29252">Unless, of course, nobody is playing a rogue this session....<snip of stuff addressed to others that I don't overly care to respond to...>Err... did you even read the section you quoted?  I just, flat-out, said you did not say it was impossible.  Perhaps we have a communication issue here.Oh, look - I said it's more expensive than the rogue.  [edit]Oh yeah - I also said that about the earliest it can be done that way is 3rd level....[/edit]<snip>I have repeated, several times, that the Rogue does it for less.  I'm starting to get the impression you're not really reading what I type.Once again: Does your DM bring half the dungeon down on your head every time you get into a fight (look up the Listen skill - it's DC *-10*)?  Does the DM have the entire dungeon come at you every time you fort up to take a nap (finding their buddies dead, and tracking down where the trail ends, then grabbing everyone available for justice/revenge/snacks)?  Realistically, these would happen in any somewhat organized dungeon with intelligent denizens.  Do all your opponents always fail their spot and listen checks when the rogue goes scouting ahead?  Does your rogue never get caught without the rest of the party?  At least if you're attracting attention in the hallway, those Large monsters still can't get at you, you're neigh-impossible to flank, and there's a sharp limit to how many can come at you at once.  This possibility is a better one than that which your DM glosses over anyway.Besides - with the +1 DC per 10 feet of distance, +5 DC for each door, and +15 DC for each wall on the Listen check (also +5 DC for being distracted if they've got things other than listening on their minds; -10 penalty on the roll if they're asleep), most things in a dungeon room are functionally deaf if you're in the hallway fifty feet away.And, if you're still worried about it, the Cleric has a Silence spell for when you need to actually tunnel - provided you're at about level 3 or so, and you plan this out.  Oh yeah?Go back to the first post where I quoted you - in the section I was quoting, you were going over the cost of using Dispel Magic (and the greater version, later on) for dealing with traps.  I've walked you down to being concerned about the expense of 1st level spells.I think it's fairly clear I've demonstrated that, while it may not be as bad as you think now that I've shown you how to do it with 1st level spells, that it is not as bad as you thought then when you appeared to be thinking it required 3rd+ level spells.Yes, the Wizard trap solution is more expensive than the rogue trap solution.  But it's not as bad as you thought.No, this strand of argument was started because that you were estimating way too high on the cost, and way too low on the effectiveness, of non-rogue solutions.  It doesn't take 3rd and 6th level spells, and deals only with magic traps - it takes 1st and 0th level spells, and gets the majority of traps.Yeah, but it's not as costly as you seem to have thought.  And, you know - it's not actually all that difficult.  Hey - a SPELL does most the work.No, they're generally going to be equally effective.  For that matter, you already admitted as much in a previous post - "It could be safely said that both suffer the same chance to miss a trap due to either of those things." (your words).Mind you, I'm absolutely not going to convince you of anything.  If that's the goal of my argument, then I've lost before I've begun - argument tends to cause the "opponent" to become entrenched, not to give up his position.Fortunately, I'm in this because it amuses me.  As a bonus, I might convince an onlooker that I'm correct.NO!!I'm having fun.</blockquote>

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