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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jack Simth" data-source="post: 3830815" data-attributes="member: 29252">Seriously - where are you getting that I'm seeing impossible *anywhere*?  The closest I've seen you come - which is pretty far from it - is implying that you can't usually bypass a trap.  In most cases, you will be able to do so.Of course, after posting that, you then posted "I'd agree with 2 only if there were a half-dozen disclaimers." with the referenced 2 being "If you don't have a rogue, there are a variety of other ways that are almost as effective, at least in some situations (scout, dwarf and stone traps, etc.)"You appear to be contradicting yourself with those two posts.Severity is not moot.  It's actually very important.  Especially when the Wizard-3 is, for the most part, finding traps better than the Rogue (see below, in spoilers) and my first reply to you was that it's not as bad as you think.Yet you keep treating the cost difference as severe; at 3rd, it may be harsh... but at 5th, it's less than you'll spend on the Wand of Cure Light after the fights you get into, and at 10th, it's pocket change.  The cost difference is only overly meaningful in a rather small window of opportunity (3rd, 4th, and 5th level).My point here is that you're overblowing the issue with the noise.  Sure, in the relatively limited circumstance that you have to do things quietly (in which case, you're basically limited to just bringing the rogue, and leaving the rest of the party behind, as almost nobody else has stealth skills anyway).  You just said it yourself - you're really only expecting one, maybe two rooms to come at you - which is what you'd expect from a regular fight encounter.  And when they do, they're forced to come at you in a confined environment (the hallway) where you essentially get to take them on one at a time.  If you've cleaned out the area behind you, they'll only come from the front - oh yeah, and there's a good chance that whatever trap you found is still there, ready for them to spring (or, alternately, show you where to find the bypass).  Have a simple combat-control spell handy for the rear, and you're good to go simply by virtue of marching order.Okay, you'll have trouble with area effect spells sent your way - but you have issues with that type in a confined environment like a dungeon anyway.You're overblowing the consequences of making noise when you bring it up as a serious reason to avoid the strategy.See below - the lower-danger option is actually the Wizard, curiously.That's just an add-on for if you're worried about making a racket.Interestingly, you dropped that from the table ... after I quoted you listing it as a resource hog, and listing a lower-level alternative.I mean, just from the timing, it would strongly appear that I moved you from "wizard needs 3rd level spells" to "1st level spells will do it"Sure looks like you moved.Yeah - as a possibility for when you're worried about making a racket.  Most the time, you really shouldn't be.  If you're normally worried about it, you'll have to leave everyone with significant material armor behind anyway, due to the armor check penalty on Move Silently (and that most such don't have it as a class skill).To be effective, it takes two spells; the extras are just for when you're worried about particular, fairly low-occurence issues (like having to be fully quiet).Read the first post where I quoted you; I'm responding to the impression you seem to have had that other classes can't handle traps reasonably well - the sparkcasters actually can, and the meatshields can reliably bull through most of them - between the two, that covers most the classes.Which is, you know, a fairly big if.That one of my solutions that we're mostly focusing on does, yes.You can also use a meatshield and a healer (or a healer with a high Con).  Or someone with a very good AC and high saves and Evasion (like a Monk, or Paladin with a Ring of Evasion).  Verses pigeonholing a PC into taking a particular role, and "wasting" a lot of skill points and GP on that role?  The difference is one of a value judgment on what is worth how much, which will vary.Detailed analysis in spoiler:[sblock]A rogue will occasionally miss traps due to random chance (if he's rolling) or will miss the ones that are outside his range for his choice of non-roll (if he's not).The Unseen Servant dragging a 100 pound bag of rocks with a rat (or other easily-obtained animal - Chickens are cheap) attached, followed by a Wizard concentrating on Detect Magic will get quite a few traps. Of the trigger types in the <a href="http://srd.pbemnexus.com/traps.html" target="_blank">SRD</a>, it will catch:Location (someone's in the square)Proximity (A creature is in the area)Sound (always magical)Visual (always magical)Touch (Unseen Servant does touch things)Spell (always magical)All of this without a roll.It will only miss the Timed trigger mechanism, and even then, only if it's a mechanical trap (magic traps are spotted, no roll required) - in the SRD, that's the Ceiling Pendulum (CR 3), Compacting Room (CR 6), and Whirling Poison Blades (CR 6) traps.  All three of these are traps that don't trigger in response to the party - they just go off periodically.  As you'll be traveling at 5 feet per round, if you've got a reasonable light source, they'll either be noticed or they will have a very low probability of catching the party in their range anyway.The Wizard-3 doing this will find ALL the CR 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, and 10 traps listed in the SRD, without any roll at all, and most of the CR 3 and 6 traps (misses only one CR 3 trap, and two CR 6 - and those are merely damage-dealing traps). With a caster level 1 Unseen Servant, he'll be about 20 feet behind his trapfinder for all the mechanical traps - and none of those in the SRD are that far away from their trigger.  He finds Magic traps at 60 feet (range of Detect Magic) - and none of the ones in the SRD have an effect range beyond that.The Rogue-3 with an Int of 16, max ranks in Search, taking 10, with a masterwork tool, finds all DC 21 or less traps safely - he misses the Camoglaged Pit Trap, Poison Needle Trap, Razor Wire Across Hallway, Wall Blade Trap - and that's just of the CR 1 traps listed in the SRD.  If he takes 20 (and thus, takes 20 times as long at it as our Unseen Servant and Wizard combo) he gets all DC 31 or less traps safely - he starts missing things at CR 8 (spell traps, Search DC 32).  If he rolls, he's got a chance to miss every trap on the list (minimum roll of 12 - all traps in the SRD have a Search DC higher than that).  The Rogue-10 with max ranks, but otherwise identical to our Rogue-3, safely finds all DC 27 or less traps taking 10 (starts missing them at CR 4, with the spell traps at that level); 37 or less traps taking 20; rolling, he has a chance to miss traps with a search DC of 20 or better - which happens as early as CR 1 (basic arrow trap).  Add in Goggles of Minute Seeing for another +5, and he's running at DC 32 or less traps taking 10 (starts missing at CR 9, with the spell traps at that level) and DC 42 or less traps taking 20; with a chance to miss DC 25 or higher traps when rolling (which starts happening at CR 3 - Stone Blocks from Ceiling).  Now, that rogue-10, actually taking 20 (and as such, all the time in the world) will find every trap in the SRD (highest DC is 34).If anything, the Wizard doing this is MORE reliable than the rogue at finding traps successfully without getting hurt, up until about .  After that, it's just a matter of getting around them.[/sblock]Calling it about the same chance was me being generous to the rogue.I'm afraid I have to officially retract my statement that the Rogue finds traps better than the Wizard does.  A survey of the SRD traps shows otherwise.  I apologize.</blockquote>

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