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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 5468299" data-attributes="member: 29398">There's no point in using Forge terminology or definitions with me.I define "gamist" as shorthand for "game mechanics driven", in a sense.  Experience points are and always have been gamist.  Treasure could be simply part of the narrative and-or part of the simulation up till 4e but 4e has tied it too into the mechanics.To me the term gamist doesn't apply here.  ExP are gamist all the way in any case, it's just that 1e and 4e use different mechanical ways and means of giving 'em out.Metagame to me means "outside the game" and is usually applied to knowledge or information players know and characters don't, or shouldn't.Exactly, which to me is part of the problem.  You can't have a no-treasure game; but more importantly you can't have a highly-variable-treasure game where in one adventure you get stinking rich and the next you get near nothing, the game assumes the treasure will accrue at a nice steady pace.  Not, at least, without kitbashing the system upside the head once or twice.Then again, were I ever to run 3e one of the first things I'd throw out would be the wealth-by-level guidelines.Yep, and that leads straight back to the endless discussion about which one really is D+D; because if they're that different they can't be realistically called the same thing.By "tweaked a bit" I'm assuming you mean "crumpled into a little ball then origami-ed into unrecognizability", hm? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Thing is, if I wanted I could do all this with 4e.  'Course, once I got done with the toolbox the system would be about as close to 4e as our current system is to 1e, which is best described as "vaguely recognizable".1e and 3e can do this just as well - been there, done that in both.In all cases, though, I'd think the interest in theory would lie in the day-to-day adventuring and character interactions on the small (i.e. session-level) scale and the overall story and character careers on the large (i.e. campaign-level) scale.  And in all cases it's often that the story doesn't appear until partway through when the DM has that "aha" moment and synthesizes it all into something coherent. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Lan-"as player, my most recent PC death was by party during a treasury division"-efan</blockquote>

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