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<blockquote data-quote="Thanee" data-source="post: 1508091" data-attributes="member: 478">Of course not, that's pointless. The comparison is all psionic versus a similar amount of magic spells (there are more magic spells, but that is covered elsewhere). And the main part of this comparison is the mechanics, which are obviously quite different, especially the scaling (huge disadvantage for psions) versus caps and much, much lower flexibility (huge disadvantage for spellcasters).&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; So you compare 3.5 psionics with 3.0 arcana?&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; More than spellcasters, but not so much more than a sorcerer normally. There selection of powers is quite broad, too, even tho not as broad as what the sorcerer can pick from, of course.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; Could you make some examples or somehow elaborate what you mean?&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; If there is a psionic counterpart, this will be kinda hard to find one that is &quot;just plain better&quot;, I suppose. I havn't seen many powers yet, that don't easily live up to their arcane counterparts (if augmented properly, which has a higher cost, of course, but that is the price for the added flexibility, can't look at the disadvantages without the advantages).&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; Of course, but you can (again) not compare it this way.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; It still is a power of the same level, it just costs more PP to manifest. I'm very much aware of this fact.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Also, I labeled this &quot;Assumption&quot; for a good reason, as this is surely not easily proven. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; It has nothing to do with the items to follow, tho.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The cost to augment is an inherent part of the way psionic powers work.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; That's the point to be proven... how much of an advantage it is versus how much of a disadvantage. Flexibility comes at a price, you can't have more flexibility and equal power, that's not going to work.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; The vastness of spells is covered in the psions main disadvantage already.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; It's not really meant as an advantage...&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; I think it is very much the same... the point here is, that the psion has much fewer powers to choose from, and the discipline powers of other disciplines (which count to the lower power base) can only be picked by the feat equivalent of &quot;extra spell&quot;, which the sorcerer can choose. So, while it certainly makes the feat better in comparison (allows access to other powers plus the normal uses), it makes their power base even worse, so this is meant to enhance the first, not take away from it.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; See above.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; It's certainly not meant that way... I'll see if I can make it clearer, tho.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; Not speaking of the general nature of spellcasters, but of spells that work on others, where powers do not. It is a disadvantage, but surely not an incredible one, once you take away the part sorcerers have, too.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; And again, if I have forgotten anything (never said, this is a finite list), please point it out.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; No, all the time (cept the very first levels).&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; Irrelevant to this point. This is only about how many of those they can choose to do, not how often. And you surely don't want to say, that sorcerers can cast their high level spells more often than psions can manifest their high level powers, because that is obviously false.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Sorcerers can - in total - cast more spells per day than psions can manifest powers, yes.&nbsp;But the ones they get in addition are only low level ones then and that certainly balances the aspect, that psions get to manifest more high level ones that have a higher impact.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I'll get back to this later, as it is meant to be covered in another item, actually.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; A whole lot less? Not really.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; Yeah. That &quot;A few more times&quot; can be quite often, tho. IF the psion manifests all powers at maximum level. That's surely a quick way to burn through one's PP/ day. I quite efficient way in having much effect in short time, but quite inefficient in having spread ones power over a longer time frame. They can do the latter, too, the sorcerer cannot do the first. But again, that's another item in the list.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; Yes, the sorcerer can cast more spells per day, already said so.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; And you can't just translate spell slots into PP / day, there are many other factors to consider (see above) as a whole.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; And what has this to do with spells/powers known, anyways?&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; That is true, but doesn't make this any less valid. It's a comparison between sorcerer and psion after all.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;BTW, you didn't complain - like above - that I have stated two facts in one here. 1) psions geht higher level powers quicker (1 level earlier) 2) psions have much more of them at pretty much every level.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; For you too... Note, that I deliberately do not state in this comparison as to why the problem lies with the sorcerer or with the psion, just point out, that the problem exists (in a rather large scale IMHO).&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;Yes, I have an opinion about this subject, and yes I do think the problem lies more on the psion side than on the sorcerer side (rough estimate 75% to 25%).&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; Spells have those, too. Or do you want to say, that a fireball is not visible/audible, for example?&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; Very easy to get... Have you ever noticed how expensive some of that stuff can be? I'd actually more than happily pay 25-50xp for Stoneskin instead of 250gp! Would make the spell much more useful to me. Not that the equivalent power even has a cost, but it has a reduced effect to compensate. But I am aware, that most people have a huge objection towards spending xp. Their loss. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;Yes xp is a tough cost. I won't play this down, but it's fair enough compared with gp, which you do not have in unlimited amounts either. Both are limited resources, which are easily regained over time.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; That's a matter of perception.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Let's stay with actually useful feats.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Or do you actually want to compare the usefulness of WP: Sickle with Energy Substitution for a spellcaster?&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; At a cost, yes.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; Not at all. The psion has this for exactly all powers he knows at no cost.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; Agreed.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;It only achieves that some stuff simply won't be used at all (no major disadvantage, since psions don't need any of that stuff, like most metapsionics (get most important ones for free or equivalent effects, anyways) or Psionic Endowment (use Psionatrix instead)). I don't really like that mechanic either.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; Now that's just completely false. Most powers that need scaling have uncapped augmentation (only limit is the manifester level) and the effect is very much not minor.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; Which is left out here for a good reason and covered above instead.&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;To recap, the issues with scaling and augmentation have advantages and disadvantages for both types of casters which (IMHO) are pretty much balanced to each other (the above assumption).&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; How many powers do you know, which the abovementioned metamagic feats would be applicable to, but are not automatically included?&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Examples would be good.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; See above.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; A psion can use his PP spread in any way he chooses, the sorcerer can use higher level slots to cast lower level spells, that's it.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; It actually has nothing to do with this fact. It's about flexibility (and only flexibility), not scaling or power or number of spells/powers per day.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; Shown?&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Converting spells to PP doesn't show much, as I have already stated, since it neglects important parts of the whole spell-power-equation (my above a ssumption).&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Anyways...&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;That's something where I can partially agree with, actually. Your comparison leaves important facts out, tho, so it's not very accurate, but still, and I have said so already and also listed it in the statement of this fact, sorcerers have more spells per day than psions have powers per day - given a somewhat natural use of them (that is augmenting most of their powers some but not to the max, preserving some of their vast power for later this way, instead of burning through all their PP quickly - which is extremely powerful, but only for a short while).&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I might add this difference (spells per day versus powers per day) as a seperate fact, tho, to make it more clear.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; See below, if you want to see how funny...&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; Now - going into silly mode for a moment - if psions do not use their powers in a reasonably natural way as stated above (that is augmenting most of their powers to a degree, but not to max), but instead simply go for maximum damage dice, they could (just one example off the top of my head) at 20th level (28 Int) do 3280d6+3280 of damage in a single day (trigger items not included, of course)! How does that compare to the &quot;pushing 400&quot; above? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue&nbsp; &nbsp; :p"&nbsp; data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; So obviously Psions are 8 times as powerful as sorcerers! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue&nbsp; &nbsp; :p"&nbsp; data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;Wait, another example (using Metamorphic Transfer)... a 20th level psion can turn 216 targets to stone in a day, with the DC of a 10th level spell (using Cha, tho - but at that level you can have a high Cha in addition to a high Int, if you want to). That's the equivalent of 216 heightened 6th level spells! A sorcerer can do this roughly 30 times a day at that level (not heightened, of course, or only partially).&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; As I said elsewhere, silly examples don't mean anything... *leaving silly mode*&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; And while it is silly and completely unreasonable it still somewhat shows how much flexibility the psion has.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; Yep. Though, all casters have this (cept the druid). The advantage is only minor, after all, tho.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; I havn't said either in the comparison.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; The examples I stated already make it broken, and those are three out of hundreds of possibilities. Anyways, this is - as said above - only meant as a fun comment (even tho it certainly has some truth to it, it's not really important in the comparison how broken a single feat is).&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Your responses are not very accurate. Most of the time you state stuff that is covered elsewhere, instead of keeping focused on the actual fact presented.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; Not for me. But it's my opinion stated there, not a fact. It's - of course - open to discussion.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; LOL !?&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; What metamagic is better for the sorcerer?&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; And don't forget to figure in Psionic Meditation here (as a bonus feat, so no actual cost compared to the sorcerer)!&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; A move action is an &quot;incredible difficulty&quot; and a &quot;huge limiting factor&quot;?&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Let's see...&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Sorcerer - full-round action&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Psion - standard action + move action&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Notice a pattern?&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Furthermore...&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Psion - gets use of many, very good metamagic feats for free!&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I fail to see the advantage of the sorcerer here! Enlighten me, please!&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; You always state this, at pretty much every opportunity. How about trying some other arguments. This one has been stated often enough by now, don't you think? Especially since you always leave out the advantages that are bound to this.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; Definitely, a huge improvement over the PsiHB 3.0 version, I'm inclined to say.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; That's undeniable. Compared to the psion they highly lack in power as well, tho.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; I don't see where I have said this in my comparison. In fact, I have stated, that in my opinion sorcerers are not that much behind wizards (and other casters), just psions. It's true, that I am of the opinion, that psions are overpowered, altho this comparison does not state this in any way (only in relation to the sorcerer).&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; Psionics have taken some hits (similar to arcane magic), that's true. However, based on the quite formidable 3.0 Psion (including the ITCK / MS rules here, not the base PsiBH one, which most certainly wasn't formidable at all) they also included a multitude of advantages over that one (many of those are listed in my comparison). Arcane casters have not been granted those (beyond some minor stuff like spell swapping for sorcerers or one additional class skill).&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Bye&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Thanee</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Thanee, post: 1508091, member: 478"] Of course not, that's pointless. The comparison is all psionic versus a similar amount of magic spells (there are more magic spells, but that is covered elsewhere). And the main part of this comparison is the mechanics, which are obviously quite different, especially the scaling (huge disadvantage for psions) versus caps and much, much lower flexibility (huge disadvantage for spellcasters). So you compare 3.5 psionics with 3.0 arcana? More than spellcasters, but not so much more than a sorcerer normally. There selection of powers is quite broad, too, even tho not as broad as what the sorcerer can pick from, of course. Could you make some examples or somehow elaborate what you mean? If there is a psionic counterpart, this will be kinda hard to find one that is "just plain better", I suppose. I havn't seen many powers yet, that don't easily live up to their arcane counterparts (if augmented properly, which has a higher cost, of course, but that is the price for the added flexibility, can't look at the disadvantages without the advantages). Of course, but you can (again) not compare it this way. It still is a power of the same level, it just costs more PP to manifest. I'm very much aware of this fact. Also, I labeled this "Assumption" for a good reason, as this is surely not easily proven. :) It has nothing to do with the items to follow, tho. The cost to augment is an inherent part of the way psionic powers work. That's the point to be proven... how much of an advantage it is versus how much of a disadvantage. Flexibility comes at a price, you can't have more flexibility and equal power, that's not going to work. The vastness of spells is covered in the psions main disadvantage already. It's not really meant as an advantage... I think it is very much the same... the point here is, that the psion has much fewer powers to choose from, and the discipline powers of other disciplines (which count to the lower power base) can only be picked by the feat equivalent of "extra spell", which the sorcerer can choose. So, while it certainly makes the feat better in comparison (allows access to other powers plus the normal uses), it makes their power base even worse, so this is meant to enhance the first, not take away from it. See above. It's certainly not meant that way... I'll see if I can make it clearer, tho. Not speaking of the general nature of spellcasters, but of spells that work on others, where powers do not. It is a disadvantage, but surely not an incredible one, once you take away the part sorcerers have, too. And again, if I have forgotten anything (never said, this is a finite list), please point it out. No, all the time (cept the very first levels). Irrelevant to this point. This is only about how many of those they can choose to do, not how often. And you surely don't want to say, that sorcerers can cast their high level spells more often than psions can manifest their high level powers, because that is obviously false. Sorcerers can - in total - cast more spells per day than psions can manifest powers, yes. But the ones they get in addition are only low level ones then and that certainly balances the aspect, that psions get to manifest more high level ones that have a higher impact. I'll get back to this later, as it is meant to be covered in another item, actually. A whole lot less? Not really. Yeah. That "A few more times" can be quite often, tho. IF the psion manifests all powers at maximum level. That's surely a quick way to burn through one's PP/ day. I quite efficient way in having much effect in short time, but quite inefficient in having spread ones power over a longer time frame. They [i]can[/i] do the latter, too, the sorcerer cannot do the first. But again, that's another item in the list. Yes, the sorcerer can cast more spells per day, already said so. And you can't just translate spell slots into PP / day, there are many other factors to consider (see above) as a whole. And what has this to do with spells/powers known, anyways? That is true, but doesn't make this any less valid. It's a comparison between sorcerer and psion after all. BTW, you didn't complain - like above - that I have stated two facts in one here. 1) psions geht higher level powers quicker (1 level earlier) 2) psions have much more of them at pretty much every level. For you too... Note, that I deliberately do not state in this comparison as to why the problem lies with the sorcerer or with the psion, just point out, that the problem exists (in a rather large scale IMHO). Yes, I have an opinion about this subject, and yes I do think the problem lies more on the psion side than on the sorcerer side (rough estimate 75% to 25%). Spells have those, too. Or do you want to say, that a fireball is not visible/audible, for example? Very easy to get... Have you ever noticed how expensive some of that stuff can be? I'd actually more than happily pay 25-50xp for Stoneskin instead of 250gp! Would make the spell much more useful to me. Not that the equivalent power even has a cost, but it has a reduced effect to compensate. But I am aware, that most people have a huge objection towards spending xp. Their loss. ;) Yes xp is a tough cost. I won't play this down, but it's fair enough compared with gp, which you do not have in unlimited amounts either. Both are limited resources, which are easily regained over time. That's a matter of perception. ;) Let's stay with actually useful feats. Or do you actually want to compare the usefulness of WP: Sickle with Energy Substitution for a spellcaster? At a cost, yes. Not at all. The psion has this for exactly all powers he knows at no cost. Agreed. It only achieves that some stuff simply won't be used at all (no major disadvantage, since psions don't need any of that stuff, like most metapsionics (get most important ones for free or equivalent effects, anyways) or Psionic Endowment (use Psionatrix instead)). I don't really like that mechanic either. Now that's just completely false. Most powers that need scaling have uncapped augmentation (only limit is the manifester level) and the effect is very much [i]not[/i] minor. Which is left out here for a good reason and covered above instead. To recap, the issues with scaling and augmentation have advantages and disadvantages for both types of casters which (IMHO) are pretty much balanced to each other (the above assumption). How many powers do you know, which the abovementioned metamagic feats would be applicable to, but are not automatically included? Examples would be good. See above. A psion can use his PP spread in any way he chooses, the sorcerer can use higher level slots to cast lower level spells, that's it. It actually has nothing to do with this fact. It's about flexibility (and only flexibility), not scaling or power or number of spells/powers per day. Shown? Converting spells to PP doesn't show much, as I have already stated, since it neglects important parts of the whole spell-power-equation (my above a ssumption). Anyways... That's something where I can partially agree with, actually. Your comparison leaves important facts out, tho, so it's not very accurate, but still, and I have said so already and also listed it in the statement of this fact, sorcerers have more spells per day than psions have powers per day - given a somewhat natural use of them (that is augmenting most of their powers some but not to the max, preserving some of their vast power for later this way, instead of burning through all their PP quickly - which is extremely powerful, but only for a short while). I might add this difference (spells per day versus powers per day) as a seperate fact, tho, to make it more clear. See below, if you want to see how funny... Now - going into silly mode for a moment - if psions do not use their powers in a reasonably natural way as stated above (that is augmenting most of their powers to a degree, but not to max), but instead simply go for maximum damage dice, they could (just one example off the top of my head) at 20th level (28 Int) do 3280d6+3280 of damage in a single day (trigger items not included, of course)! How does that compare to the "pushing 400" above? :p So [i]obviously[/i] Psions are 8 times as powerful as sorcerers! :p Wait, another example (using Metamorphic Transfer)... a 20th level psion can turn 216 targets to stone in a day, with the DC of a 10th level spell (using Cha, tho - but at that level you can have a high Cha in addition to a high Int, if you want to). That's the equivalent of 216 heightened 6th level spells! A sorcerer can do this roughly 30 times a day at that level (not heightened, of course, or only partially). As I said elsewhere, silly examples don't mean anything... *leaving silly mode* And while it is silly and completely unreasonable it still somewhat shows how much flexibility the psion has. Yep. Though, all casters have this (cept the druid). The advantage is only minor, after all, tho. I havn't said either in the comparison. The examples I stated already make it broken, and those are three out of hundreds of possibilities. Anyways, this is - as said above - only meant as a fun comment (even tho it certainly has some truth to it, it's not really important in the comparison how broken a single feat is). Your responses are not very accurate. Most of the time you state stuff that is covered elsewhere, instead of keeping focused on the actual fact presented. Not for me. But it's my opinion stated there, not a fact. It's - of course - open to discussion. LOL !? What metamagic is better for the sorcerer? And don't forget to figure in Psionic Meditation here (as a bonus feat, so no actual cost compared to the sorcerer)! A move action is an "incredible difficulty" and a "huge limiting factor"? Let's see... Sorcerer - full-round action Psion - standard action + move action Notice a pattern? Furthermore... Psion - gets use of many, very good metamagic feats for free! I fail to see the advantage of the sorcerer here! Enlighten me, please! You always state this, at pretty much every opportunity. How about trying some other arguments. This one has been stated often enough by now, don't you think? Especially since you always leave out the advantages that are bound to this. Definitely, a huge improvement over the PsiHB 3.0 version, I'm inclined to say. That's undeniable. Compared to the psion they highly lack in power as well, tho. I don't see where I have said this in my comparison. In fact, I have stated, that in my opinion sorcerers are not that much behind wizards (and other casters), just psions. It's true, that I am of the opinion, that psions are overpowered, altho this comparison does not state this in any way (only in relation to the sorcerer). Psionics have taken some hits (similar to arcane magic), that's true. However, based on the quite formidable 3.0 Psion (including the ITCK / MS rules here, not the base PsiBH one, which most certainly wasn't formidable at all) they also included a multitude of advantages over that one (many of those are listed in my comparison). Arcane casters have not been granted those (beyond some minor stuff like spell swapping for sorcerers or one additional class skill). Bye Thanee [/QUOTE]

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