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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Theo R Cwithin" data-source="post: 4984767" data-attributes="member: 75712">Here's a wordy (sorry, long post <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/blush.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":blush:" title="Blush    :blush:" data-shortname=":blush:" />) but fairly minor mod to grappling that slightly improves survivability against certain monsters with super-grappling abilities.  Basically, it boils down to adjusting the grapple bonus based on what exactly is doing the grappling:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">"tackle" is a whole-body grapple or "combo" attack of different appendages, mainly used against more or less like-sized foes. Mechanically, "tackle" gives the normal RAW grapple bonus. (Examples: two humans wrestling or doing judo; a lion pouncing on an antelope; a python constricting its prey; a hamatula hugging a PC to its spikes; an owlbear grabbing a dwarf; a grey render granbbing and rending a PC)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">"grasp" utilizes a body part - hand, tentacle, bite - to grab a smaller opponent.  Mechanically, for most creatures, grasp yields RAW grapple bonus -8. (Examples: a human holding a cat (the cat is using tackle in return, in this case); a kraken grabbing a PC; a giant gripping a halfling (the halfling is likely tackling in return); an assassin vine entwining with its tendrils; a purple worm biting and swallowing a horse)</li> </ul>It requires a little DM arbitration for unusual cases, but mostly it's fairly logical.  Here's a draft writeup of the specifics:[sblock]During a grapple check the grapple initiator uses the size modifier corresponding to the body parts used in the grapple.  Ordinarily (for typical PCs and other humanoids), this means either: <ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">"tackle" with the whole body - Use the grapple initiator's own size mod when grappling an opponent of one size category smaller*, of the same size category, or one size category larger. (Mechanically, a tackle uses the normal grapple check in RAW.)                                                   -OR-</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">"grasp" with an appendage (arm/hand, claw, tentacle, mouth, etc) - Use the mod for the size category two smaller than the grapple initiator's own size category for grapple checks against an opponent one or more size categories smaller*.  (Mechanically, a grasp uses a grapple check at -8 as compared to RAW.)</li> </ol>  *note: against an opponent exactly one size category smaller, the grapple initiator can choose which size modifier to use (unless GM or circumstances dictate one or the other)Ordinarily, the defender against the initiator's grapple is considered to be using the tackle mode.  The DM decides if circumstances require grapplers to use one grapple mode or the other.For either tackle or grasp, the grapple check vs an opponent two or more size categories larger automatically fails (as RAW), unless circumstances allow otherwise.For some creatures, the max- and min- sized opponent  that can be grappled may vary from the default grapple rules because of feats, special abilities or features.  This should be indicated in description text.For certain creatures that can use grasp, the size mod of the appendage used might be different than the normal "size-2" rule, because the grappling appendage is relatively bigger or smaller than assumed by default.  (eg, a medium human's hands are tiny, but a medium monstrous scorpion's claws are small, rather than tiny) This should be indicated in the creature description.The feat Improved Grapple remains unchanged.  Additional feats might extend the size ranges affected by a grappler's attacks, abilty to escape holds, move an opponent, etc.A creature with Improved Grab, loses that special ability and replaces it with one of two new special abilities, depending upon how a monster typically uses its ability: Improved Grasp[sblock]Improved GraspTypically reserved for creatures that grapple with an individual body part,  such as a tentacle or pseudopod, claw, mouth, etc.  Many such creatures can grapple multiple opponents simultaneously; others focus on swallowing opponents.(deviations from RAW noted in orange)If a creature with this special attack hits an opponent with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grasp-type grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required.Unless otherwise noted, improved grasp works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grasp-type grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grasp to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -8 penalty on grapple checks vs that opponent, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents.A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).When a creature gets a hold after an improved grasp attack, it can choose to pull the opponent into its space, provided it can drag the opponent’s weight. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight. [/sblock]Improved Tackle[sblock]Improved TackleTypically reserved for creatures that use two or more appendages together in "combo" attacks, or its entire body in a grapple; often, such creatures have access to tactics such as pounce or hug [eg, animals], engulf [eg, oozes], body constrict [eg, constrictor snakes], rake, rend, grab-and-sting, etc.  Such creatures generally can only "hold" a single opponent.(deviations from RAW noted in orange)If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a tackle-type grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required.Unless otherwise noted, improved tackle works only against opponents of the same size category as itself, or down to two size categories smaller. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents.A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).When a creature gets a hold after an improved tackle attack, it can choose either to pull the opponent into its space (provided it can drag the opponent’s weight), or move into the opponent's space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight. [/sblock][/sblock]FYI, here's a list of SRD creatures with improved grab, and an inteerpretation of which typically use grasp and which use tackle:[sblock]Monsters with Improved Grab:  What kind of grapplers are they?T=tackle G=graspbehir      T - body constrict > rake, swallowchoker  G - tentaclechuul  G - clawretriever  G - bite > holdhezrou  T- wrestlebezekira  T - pounce, rakehamatula  T - hugpit fiend  G - tailtyranosaur  G - bite > swallowgrey render  T - bite > claw rendhag, annis  T - claws > rake, rendkraken   G - tentacleslillend  G - tailmorgh  T - (? guess.  only one slam, kinda zombie like. tackle seems appropriate)nightcrawler  G - bite > swallowooze, grey   T (or G?)  single slam > constrict  (? one big fat pseudopod, most of ooze's mass?)ooze, ochre jelly   T (or G?)  single slam > constrict  (ditto)ooze, black pudding   T (or G?)  single slam > constrict  (ditto)otyugh    G - tentacleowlbear   T - hug (?guess)purple worm   G - bite > swallowrast   G - biteremorhaz  G - bite > swallowshambling mound   T - hugtarasque   G - bite > swallow tendriculous  G - bite > swallow, or  G - tentaclewyvern  T - talons > stingxill   T - multiple claws > bitebear  T - hugcroc  T - bite > drag & drownoctopus  T - arms (all arms comprise single attack by RAW)octopus, giant  G - tentacle (multiple individual attacks)snake, constrictor  T - body constrictsquid, giant  G - tentacleant, giant worker T (? because same as for soldier)ant, giant soldier  T - bite > stingant, giant queen  T (? because same as for soldier)monstrous scorpion G - clawsnotes:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">usually, a creature with "combo" attacks (in which one of a creature's special attacks or standard tactics cannot be used [except constrict] unless a grapple is established) is put in the "tackle" category.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">G for more "precise" attacks (prey usually smaller than self), and T otherwise.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">bite is G if it leads to a swallow (only one 'appendage'(mouth) is involved);  bite is T if leads to rake (combo attack, diff't appendages together)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">i guessed in a few cases (oozes, morgh, giant ant), just went with whatever seemed to fit the concept.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">for a few of the G creatures, could rule that grasping appendage is a size category bigger than default rules assume (ie, so only one size category smaller and thus a -4 to listed grapple, rather than -8).  (eg, chuul, scorpion (bulky claws), pitfiend, lillend (big tails), otyugh, tendriculos (just because theyre too nerfed otherwise, imo?) )[/sblock]</li> </ul></blockquote>

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