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Message: <blockquote data-quote="gizmo33" data-source="post: 2878064" data-attributes="member: 30001">Well, I guess I should admit that I'm not well versed on each versions flavor text.  Are the abyssal armies pan-Abyssal forces that are not under the control of any one demon lord?  Or is each lord assumed to have several armies?Actually I disagree.  IMO you're equating CR with political power.  One certainly is related to the other in a "dog-eat-dog" environment, but a CR 20 creature with luck and political savy is more powerful than a CR 20 creature without it.IMO perhaps it doesn't make sense to talk about demon lords vs. unamed demons and using Balor's as an example because Balor's are an exception in power levels.  Then again I'm not well-versed on the myriad of demons outside of the SRD.  Also, there are issues of how pre-published settings like Forgotten Realms mesh with this - people IMO have a valid complaint if the demon lords are underpowered with respect to certain NPCs in any given campaign setting.  If the average level of hero is 50th in your campaign, then I definitely see that there is a problem.So I'm assuming that we're just looking at other demons from the SRD, in which case we're only talking about Balors IIRC.  And so the issue has as much to do with the way you envision Balors.  As I said with Titans, IMC I would never have a nameless CR 20 creature just bumble into a dungeon - creatures of that power are ancient and named.The primary difference between Balors (or the equiv) in my campaign and demon lord is a host of abilities that don't show up in the stat blocks.  Details aside, if a demon lord has worshippers then a demon lord probably has divine ranks.  As I said in a previous post, IMO you have to assume that each demon lord has had a measure of political success in it's area.  Through luck and unique circumstances they've managed to find themselves in a situation where they are controlling things.  One single other balor demon in a household of Yeenoghu is not going to be successful rebelling because Y would have a myriad of advantages.  Yeenoghu appears to greatly out-class any other "common" demon.It relates to my post about Y's battle tactics.  The Hordes book is doing a disservice to the demon lords if it's presenting them as stat blocks and not giving the DM any guidance on what resources the demon lord has to crush rivals other than his sheer personal prowess.  I would write a whole section on quasits and their relationship to demon lords, for example.Again, an army and fortress could possibly, as in the real world, require something other than sheer brute force to create.  Balors very well could be late-comers to the Abyssal scene (you could extrapolate from 1st edition flavor text to reach this conclusion).  In this case a Balor shows up to the Abyss and instantly falls to worshipping a demon lord or else is torn apart by the demon lord's minions.  I don't see the time for fortress/army building in this case.I admit that I've probably gone beyond the Hordes book to try to make the case for this.  I'm not saying anyone is "wrong" for having CR 30 demon lords in their game.  If the Hordes book does not present the setting in the kind of detail necessary for you to see what I'm saying (because I'm arguing from my personal vision of the Abyss, not having read the book) then I think the Hordes book is falling short.  I think "correcting" the problem with a better understanding of a demon lord's resources and situation creates a richer setting than just jacking up the CR.  There's a limit to this, certainly, but it's not like Yeenoghu is CR 10 or something.</blockquote>

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