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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ripzerai" data-source="post: 2881087" data-attributes="member: 38324">So do you have any ideas of why Yeenoghu would have opportunities that balors - with their greater ability - don't have? You're speaking in vague generalities, and I don't see how the Kennedy comparison applies. Your argument depends on flavor text, which makes it fundamentally unworkable, since there's abundant flavor text supporting the idea that balors have alliances with mariliths and nalfeshnee. It also assumes that the only nonunique demons that rival Yeenoghu in strength and exceed his puny diplomacy ranks have alien, lawful natures, which is a stretch at best when you're talking specifically about balors and ridiculous when you consider the Abyss as a whole.The notion that balors are so lawful that they drive the other demons away from them is viscerally unpleasant, reducing what is intended to be the ultimate demonic species to something foreign to their own plane. It's almost as bad as the notion of evil-tainted death slaadi, which is another setting-destroying idiocy.And even if there are only a few balors, and - despite their massive diplomacy scores implying otherwise - for some reason everyone else hates them so much that all those ranks are cancelled out (then why did they bother buying all those skill ranks in the first place, if they're left even less appealing than Yeenoghu?) even then Yeenoghu's doomed, because mariliths and nalfeshnee - even glabrezu - are all better diplomats than the Prince of Gnolls, and will be expected, on average, to be able to take his allies away from him and move them to their side. He simply can't keep allies in an Abyss filled with other true tanar'ri. If his number two isn't a balor - if balors, in your campaign, are so crippled by lawfulness that no demon could ever trust them - then a marilith could easily gain enough allies to overthrow him herself. And maybe you could claim that mariliths and nalfeshnee are hated too. But really, what's the point of stretching and contorting things so much? Just to make a point? I can't imagine you'd actually enjoy playing with an Abyss that looked like that. I don't understand why people are using so much energy defending the puny demon lord scores. Are you just playing demon's advocate? It seems perfectly acceptable to simply say, "They're too weak for my tastes, so I plan on spending an hour or so making them reasonable."'Cause they're not reasonable, and no matter how many bootleggers and former Presidents of the United States Yeenoghu has in his family, he's not going to be able to control a universe full of thugs and sociopaths, which is what all layers of the Abyss are. Not until he learns to do more than intimidate.A balor is still a better villain, regardless of how lawful you think it is. The balor could use its superior diplomacy skill to woo all the gnolls and flinds away from Yeenoghu, and then where he'd be? Just about anyone would rather worship a balor (disguised as a gnoll - Charisma 26) than Yeenoghu (Charisma 23). Even a marilith has a 24 charisma and a Diplomacy of +30 - a marilith could steal away his mortal cult, given enough patience and subtlety.She knows the nalfeshnee would love to get their hands on Yeenoghu's treasure even more. So she slowly infiltrates the gnoll prince's court, winning all of his allies and bodyguards over to her side. Starting with the quasit spies, wooing them and giving them little treats until they like her more than they like their furry king. The nalfeshnee gather their own horde and invade Yeenoghu's realm. Yeenoghu sends out his own horde to stop them, and finds to his horror that the marilith has compromised everyone. His own horde joins the nalfeshnee horde, and together they chop the gnoll prince into tiny pieces. Then they eat the pieces, and the nalfeshnee and marilith split the treasure. The balor wasn't even involved. With anyone. Because everyone hates balors, so they have no role in Abyssal politics. Because that obviously makes for a better game.Seductive, whispering, cloying. Or loud, powerful, convincing, commanding and receiving respect. Witty, flattering, funny.Or they sound like every other demon. When everyone is cosmically evil, all the evil cancels each other out, so it comes down to diplomacy. Who should they trust more, the cosmically evil Yeenoghu with his +8, or the cosmically evil marilith with her +30? Gotta side with someone, and Yeenoghu's not so powerful that he's going to get by on strength alone.It's not about like or dislike. It's about mutual advantage. Smart is short-term cooperation for mutual advantage. Stupid is letting an undiplomatic gnoll of no particular prowess rule you and bully you around when you can take all his stuff if you put aside your hatred for a moment.</blockquote>

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