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Message: <blockquote data-quote="IndyPendant" data-source="post: 1263679" data-attributes="member: 8738">Hmm...well, my thread is still getting some responses, so I think I should try revisiting it.The sorceror posted at the beginning of the thread is very close, if not exactly, the way I want it to be--after correcting for my goof and switching Silent Spell to level 15 and Still Spell to level 20, which I have just finished editing my original post to reflect.  But apparently I'm getting a lot of flak for my idea, so I will attempt to defend it.First, the skill points: it has been pointed out about five billion times since 3.0e came out that the Sorceror is the *one* class that doesn't get class skills tied to his primary ability.  Even in 3.5e, he *only* gets bluff for a cha-based skill.  In addition, the sorceror has been touted as an alternate version of the mage--but the mage is virtually guaranteed 5 skills per level (2 base + primary stat bonus of at least +3) while the sorceror gets 2 and only 2--and arguably has to have Concentration and Spellcraft.  Result: Sorceror's base skills are basically 0.  However, their skill selection sucks anyways; even the Fighter has potentially more useful skills (Climb, Jump, and Ride come to mind) so the complaint is two-edged.  Just giving them better skill selection isn't good enough; in order to have any choice for skills whatsoever, a sorceror *needs* 4 skill points per level.Second, the skills: most of the Cha-based skills are a no-brainer--or so I thought.  To Vahktang, who said "Yes to Use magic device, no to diplomacy. Maybe to sense motive." --Umm...very nice, happy to hear it, thanks for coming...why?  What possible problem could there be with Diplomacy?  Is it overpowered?  Honestly, the biggest problems I had with my skill list were removing Knowledge (Arcana) and adding Use Magic Device.  I thought people would gripe about that, not Diplomacy.  Anyways, the sorceror needs its skill list revamped.  That, in my mind, is inarguable.  What is debatable is what skills should be added or removed.  However, just saying 'yes' and 'no' is worthless.  You might as well not have posted.Third, the abilities: Some people don't like the fact that I've given the sorceror anything at all; these people I will ignore.  It is virtually inarguable that the sorceror needs *some* sort of change; currently, the sorceror is the *only* class that doesn't have special abilities, or gain further abilities as he levels.  Every single other class gains something.  The sorceror gains a familiar.  Er...yay?  Currently, there is no reason for a sorceror *not* to take a PrC, with the sole exception that since these PrCs are *all* designed with the wizard in mind, they can be difficult for a sorceror to qualify for.  Any PrC that gives +1 caster level automatically better than the sorceror class--and that's just wrong.That having been said, let me visit each ability individually and explain why I chose them.1st: Eschew Materials.This one is almost a given, and has the fewest opposed to it.  Virtually every sorceror build I've ever seen has some version of this ability attached to it; the one tweak I did that makes it slightly my own is that I give the sorceror the option of choosing material component or xp cost each time he casts the spell.  This one I think is safe to consider just right as is.5th: Heighten Spell.Personally, I can't understand why Sorcerors don't have this ability automatically.  It just makes sense to me.  A nice boost that is not in the least overpowered, in my opinion--and very 'core' to the class.  Making this ability not considered metamagically enhanced is also pretty much required as well. Frankly, the only reason why this is delayed to 5th level is to spread out the abilities, and keep the pattern of 1 bonus every 5 levels; otherwise Sorcerors would start with this as well.  This ability is more debatable than Eschew Materials--but in my opinion, not by much.  You could say that I'm roughly 95% certain I like this one as is.10th: Improved Counterspell.This one is probably the one that could be argued fits the 'pattern' the least; but in my mind it suits the sorceror very well.  Instead of countering with the exact spell--which there's a slim chance the sorceror even possesses--he can counter with a spell of same school and higher level.  When combined with the 5th level Heighten Spell ability, it becomes even more useful.  Again, few people argue with this one, and I could say I'm 90% certain I like it as is.15th: Silent Spell.Ah, now we start getting to where people's jaws seem to drop.  Probably because of the two changes I made: 1) spells aren't considered metamagically enhanced with this ability; and 2) they don't get cast at level +1.  Really, though, is this all that powerful?  How often do you have to deal with silenced spellcasting?  I don't think I ever have, as a GM or a Player.  So what if I give this ability to them for 'free'?  Keep in mind the thesis of this whole thing is that Sorcerors are slightly underpowered in the first place; this in my mind is only a very slight boost.  And, keep in mind that you have to have fifteen levels as a sorceror to do it, and it only works with sorceror spells.  Really, I fail to see the problem.  And it fits the Sorceror motif perfectly: as he gains power as a sorceror, his ability to cast magic 'naturally' increases, so that he doesn't even need to speak the words to do it.  For those who think this is overpowered, please, give me reasons why?  Because currently I can say I'm roughly 80% certain this fits as is.20th: Still Spell.Ah, the one that *really* seems to get people going.  Ok, this one I admit is a nice ability.  Especially when freely stacked with Silent Spell, it makes it difficult to notice the sorceror is casting a spell.  As a player of mine commented, at 20th sorcerors are not so much casting spells as spell-like abilities.  And what seems to really get people is that suddenly a sorceror can cast spells in full armour without penalty.  Well...really, so what?  I've read the rules, and unless I'm missing something the sorceror's spellcasting is still interrupted by things like damage and riding; the *only* benefits provided are subtlety and armoured casting.And consider: in order to use armour effectively, the sorceror must take 1 level of Fighter (or some such) at least.  So now we've got an epic-level 21st character.  20 levels sorceror and 1 level fighter.  Note that Eldritch Knight won't do it, since the char must have 20 *sorceror* levels to get this ability.  His BAB is a whopping +11.  His hit points are an average of 50!!! + 20xCon.  Let's give him absurd equipment: +5 Full Plate, +5 Large Shield, 12 Dex, +5 Ring of Protection, and +5 Amulet of Armour.  Now he's got very nearly the maximum AC of (10+13+7+1+5+5=)41.  Impressive, no?  However, now it's only fair to throw him against a Fighter equally decked out.  A 21st Fighter with Str 33 (18 start, +5 through game, +5 book, +5 item), Weapon Focused and Spec'd to the nines, with a Long Sword +5 has a BAB of (21+11+2+5=)39, doing 1d8+(11+4+5=)20 damage.  The fighter still can't miss the sorceror, in full armour! And he does half the sorceror's base hit points in one hit!  Sure, the sorceror could be protected by lots of anti-melee spells--but if so, the armour's rather redundant anyways, isn't it?  And the sorceror has actually *sacrificed* one of his sorceror levels to do this.  God forbid a decked-out rogue hit him with a sneak attack.  Sorceror go byebye.  And the sorceror can't fight back worth a damn, because he's only got +11 BAB.  (And please don't talk to me about True Strike.  It's only castable a few times a day, uses up an action, and I've already established that the ability to cast in armour just doesn't make much of a difference.)So.  With all this in mind, where's the flaw?  Silent Spell and Still Spell are useful abilities--but I can't see how they are so powerful they are 'broken'.  Please, tell me where the flaw is?  Because currently I like the build, as is.</blockquote>

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