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Message: <blockquote data-quote="TYPO5478" data-source="post: 3797074" data-attributes="member: 37531">That's interesting.  I don't interpret the second step that way.  The descriptions of bonuses refer to wielders and combatants, not attackers and defenders.  It seems that you'd get the bonus (or penalty) regardless of whether you're making the attempt or defending against it.  Otherwise, we wind up with the strange situation that attacking a longsword with a greatsword has a total +8 bonus over attacking a longsword with a dagger, but attacking a greatsword with a longsword is no different than attacking a dagger with a longsword.  That doesn't seem right to me.That's not entirely accurate.  The initial description of sunder states that it is an attack against "a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding."  Furthermore, it says that if the attempt is made against a weapon or shield, that the steps described apply, but that if it is against an carried or worn object, only an attack roll is needed.So you're right that sundering a weapon or shield is a different attack than sundering a carried or worn object, but in turn, both of those are different than damaging an unattended item.  You still have to make an attack roll against an unattended object, but the object takes a cumulative -7 penalty (-5 for Dex 0, and an fixed -2 unnamed) to its armor class; taking a full round action with a melee weapon is an automatic hit (an option not available when making a sunder attempt).  On the other hand, a sunder attempt against an attended object uses the Dex modifier of the possessor and doesn't incur the arbitrary -2 penalty.That was part of the reason that I chose the buckler example: a buckler can't be used as a weapon.</blockquote>

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