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<blockquote data-quote="Obreon" data-source="post: 7210842" data-attributes="member: 6815225">By the end of September, they're saying: <a href="https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/5451475/roll20-community-corner-number-21-8-slash-25-slash-2017-fog-and-function-september-update" target="_blank">https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/5451475/roll20-community-corner-number-21-8-slash-25-slash-2017-fog-and-function-september-update</a>So, to clarify, if the PCs enter a room, you say: &quot;Blah blah blah - and there's water trickling in through the north wall&quot;; then one of the PCs says: &quot;I go and investigate to see how the water is coming in&quot;, so they switch to &quot;Search for Secret Doors&quot; mode. Do you now have them roll a Perception check to see if they find the door, or do you determine it based on passive perception, or do you just assume that if they examine the area it will be visible? I'm struggling to imagine an effective clue that would lead to a search that *doesn't* auto-succeed. If you start poking around in the corner for a few minutes you're definitely going to find where the water is coming in. That's good for engaged play, but does seem to devalue Perception as a skill quite a bit.As you say, that's obviously only the start of the process - how do you open/disarm/etc is often more interesting.I agree - and that's most certainly what the rules say. The problem is that it leaves the game without an INT-based check for searching, which sits poorly with a lot of people of a more simulationist mindset, for reasons I talked about in the post above. Also, I find Investigation for &quot;deduction&quot; is really hard to include in a way that doesn't feel horribly clunky. Investigation to understand how something works is clear enough, but I just can't imagine how &quot;deducing from clues&quot; would work in a real game situation. What fictional action is the player declaring to have you call for such a roll? &quot;I look at the room and see what I can deduce&quot; sounds a lot like &quot;can I make an Investigation Check?&quot; to me - and I'm no more keen on that sort of approach to the game than you are!</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Obreon, post: 7210842, member: 6815225"] By the end of September, they're saying: [url]https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/5451475/roll20-community-corner-number-21-8-slash-25-slash-2017-fog-and-function-september-update[/url] So, to clarify, if the PCs enter a room, you say: "Blah blah blah - and there's water trickling in through the north wall"; then one of the PCs says: "I go and investigate to see how the water is coming in", so they switch to "Search for Secret Doors" mode. Do you now have them roll a Perception check to see if they find the door, or do you determine it based on passive perception, or do you just assume that if they examine the area it will be visible? I'm struggling to imagine an effective clue that would lead to a search that *doesn't* auto-succeed. If you start poking around in the corner for a few minutes you're definitely going to find where the water is coming in. That's good for engaged play, but does seem to devalue Perception as a skill quite a bit. As you say, that's obviously only the start of the process - how do you open/disarm/etc is often more interesting. I agree - and that's most certainly what the rules say. The problem is that it leaves the game without an INT-based check for searching, which sits poorly with a lot of people of a more simulationist mindset, for reasons I talked about in the post above. Also, I find Investigation for "deduction" is really hard to include in a way that doesn't feel horribly clunky. Investigation to understand how something works is clear enough, but I just can't imagine how "deducing from clues" would work in a real game situation. What fictional action is the player declaring to have you call for such a roll? "I look at the room and see what I can deduce" sounds a lot like "can I make an Investigation Check?" to me - and I'm no more keen on that sort of approach to the game than you are! [/QUOTE]

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