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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Obreon" data-source="post: 7210961" data-attributes="member: 6815225">Well, to me it seems like simply perceiving something by looking around a room is a function of your skills of attention, observation and visual recall/association. But in the end you can't see what isn't visible. So searching a room involves interacting with it - moving objects to make visible what is hidden, moving around to see parts you previously couldn't (or could only see in insufficient detail); while it too involves visual acuity, it also involves a lot of abstract spatial reasoning and double-guessing of whoever might have been hiding something in the space. The first is Wisdom (Perception) (by the twisted logic of D&D "Wisdom"); while the second is Intelligence (Search) - except that it isn't in DnD5e! I think this goes some way to accounting for why many people end up twisting the definition of Investigation to be more like the old Search skill. In the end it's not a huge deal.Yeah, this is exactly where I struggle with it. The statement of the fictional action already includes the conclusion of the deduction; the player has already made the important logical leap ("there could be a secret door here because there's water coming from somewhere there shouldn't be")  - and all  the character can now do is test that hypothesis against the physical information available. I think this is clear when you ask the question: 'What exactly is the character _doing_ in the fiction while they "deduce"'? I don't see what they can actually be reasoning about. Really, all that can move the situation on are things like:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> Tapping the walls</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> Examining the flow of water more carefully</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> Looking for seams/hinges/opening mechanisms</li> </ul>... and to me those all sound like "Searching" - intelligently directed examination of the environment to gather evidence - rather than "deduction"; and I don't really see how they represent a significantly different skill from any other type of searching in the game. The real "deduction" came much earlier - when the presence of water implied a space from which it might have flowed - and "rolling to see what your character thinks" is a form of play that has never worked well for me.It might sound like semantic nitpicking, but I think the failure of these skills to map well onto our everyday model of how we mentally interact with the world goes a long way towards explaining why they generate so much debate.</blockquote>

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