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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6097433" data-attributes="member: 4937">Dire Tiger is on the 8th level list, meaning you had to be 15th level to summon it.&nbsp; What sort of devil where you fighting that a party of 15th level characters was outshown by a CR 8 monster?&nbsp;&nbsp; What sort of Devil that challenges a 15th level party goes down in one round to summoned CR 8 creature?&nbsp; &nbsp; I'm a bit baffled to.&nbsp;&nbsp; Let's say its a CR 16 Horned Devil, with 172 hit points and an armor class of 35 plus it has DR 10/good AND silver, meaning that the celestial dire tiger can't overcome DR.&nbsp; How in the heck is a dire tiger doing anything more than scratching such a foe?&nbsp;&nbsp; It's average expected damage per round is in the single digits.&nbsp; It's a minor irritation to a Horned Devil, which frankly ought to be a minor irritation to 15th level characters. Huh??&nbsp; How?&nbsp; A Hill Giant Skeleton has a BAB of +6, gets -1 to hit for being large, and only has like a +6 bonus from Strength.&nbsp;&nbsp; So its only +11 to hit.&nbsp;&nbsp; I'd expect a 10th level fighter to have at least a 25 AC, so the skeleton needs like a 14 or better to hit.&nbsp; Fighting defensively drops that to a 16 or better to hit, and that's assuming the fighter hasn't taken Combat Expertise or something of the sort which would make this totally one sided.&nbsp;&nbsp; How in the world is a 10th level fighter so poorly equipped and how is it's player so tactically deficient that they can't defeat a CR 6 monster?&nbsp; Heck, my current PC party is 6th level, in a low magic world with below average magic resources, and at least two members of the party (the Hobgoblin fighter and the human 'Paladin') could possibly solo a Hill Giant Skeleton.Granted, if you play RAW, fighters have a lot of trouble competing with full spellcasters starting around 11th level.&nbsp; Still, a 15th level fighter also ought to be able to solo a Stone Golem which, with its only +18 bonus to hit, is going to have problems damaging your average CR 15+ foe.&nbsp; But seriously, even granting that 15th level Wizard is much more powerful than 15th level Fighter, the examples you are citing are just a bit .... off.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 6097433, member: 4937"] Dire Tiger is on the 8th level list, meaning you had to be 15th level to summon it. What sort of devil where you fighting that a party of 15th level characters was outshown by a CR 8 monster? What sort of Devil that challenges a 15th level party goes down in one round to summoned CR 8 creature? I'm a bit baffled to. Let's say its a CR 16 Horned Devil, with 172 hit points and an armor class of 35 plus it has DR 10/good AND silver, meaning that the celestial dire tiger can't overcome DR. How in the heck is a dire tiger doing anything more than scratching such a foe? It's average expected damage per round is in the single digits. It's a minor irritation to a Horned Devil, which frankly ought to be a minor irritation to 15th level characters. Huh?? How? A Hill Giant Skeleton has a BAB of +6, gets -1 to hit for being large, and only has like a +6 bonus from Strength. So its only +11 to hit. I'd expect a 10th level fighter to have at least a 25 AC, so the skeleton needs like a 14 or better to hit. Fighting defensively drops that to a 16 or better to hit, and that's assuming the fighter hasn't taken Combat Expertise or something of the sort which would make this totally one sided. How in the world is a 10th level fighter so poorly equipped and how is it's player so tactically deficient that they can't defeat a CR 6 monster? Heck, my current PC party is 6th level, in a low magic world with below average magic resources, and at least two members of the party (the Hobgoblin fighter and the human 'Paladin') could possibly solo a Hill Giant Skeleton. Granted, if you play RAW, fighters have a lot of trouble competing with full spellcasters starting around 11th level. Still, a 15th level fighter also ought to be able to solo a Stone Golem which, with its only +18 bonus to hit, is going to have problems damaging your average CR 15+ foe. But seriously, even granting that 15th level Wizard is much more powerful than 15th level Fighter, the examples you are citing are just a bit .... off. [/QUOTE]

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