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YOU are in charge of the next PHB! What do you change?
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<blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 8307735" data-attributes="member: 18"><p>I think this is misunderstanding why people play Bards if you're thinking they'd just switch to "mind mage". You're looking at concepts that have later been applied to Bards, and working outwards from there, not to like, why the class exists or what people actually want from it. It's a common issue and it's why the 3E Bard existed and was so extremely bad ("people play this dumb class because they suck and just want to sing dumb songs, right?" seems to be the 3E attitude lol).</p><p></p><p>What people want from a Bard is absolutely not "mind magic" as some central focus. That might be what a lot of people want from, say, a Psion, or Mesmer/Enchanter, or even, dare I say it, a Wizard, but in general people aren't saying "Yo I want to mind-control people and crush their wills and force them to do my dark bidding!" and picking "Bard" as a class unless their next step is to pick one of two specific colleges (out of eight possible - "I wanna fight in melee" is equally popular as a college theme, note - Valor and Swords).</p><p></p><p>What most people want from Bard is a diverse class that can do a lot of things, is clearly strongly magical, is okay with a sword in their hand (at least to look good, if not to be super-effective), has a lot of skills, knows lore, probably has some element of musical theme-ing (though this is likely <em>not</em> dominating everying), and probably has abilities to help other people out. They're looking for a "master of none"-kind of character, not Mandrake, Master of Illusions (enemies crumble in fear and confusion!). Yeah mind-control spells are probably in the mix, but that's more because 3E wanted to stop Bards casting Fireball or the like (you sure as hell could in 2E, I did all the time), in case precious Wizards got upset.</p><p></p><p>You can see this through the various editions:</p><p></p><p>1E's Bard is a mess, but is clearly expressing the "master of none, decent at several" theme. I understand there's one in a Dragon issue which is a lot closer to the 2E one.</p><p>2E's Bard is a true Jack-of-all-Trades - and then the kits which come out express different Bardic themes wonderfully - you will notice how few are music-first, but rather refer back to storytellers, loremasters, performers, and so on.</p><p>3E's Bard is an inversion of this design, going from master of none to bad at all, a pointless support class who is roundly inferior to a Cleric even at that. This is part of 3E's general hostility to 2E, and attempts to "wind the clock back".</p><p>3.5E's Bard tried to fix this, and improved the situation, but didn't get all the way, and then Pathfinder just trashed Bards again (and yes I have played a PF Bard).</p><p>4E's Bard went back to looking at what players wanted through a 4E lens of roles - it gave Bard the Leader role with the Controller secondary, which was a good approach, and expressed a general Jack-of-all-trades style, with a lot of helping people and a lot of flashy magic - most of it <em>not</em> mind-control or music.</p><p>5E's Bard perfectly understands what Bard players have wanted and has been pretty iconic of 5E (esp. among younger players) as a result. It's a Jack-of-all-trades again - yes it's most powerful as a caster, and close in power to other casters, but its spell list and other limitations keep it under control, and the various themes are expressed through the Bard subclasses - again, the majority of them are not about mind-magic or even music. Speech is actually the main theme, I'd say - "Words of..." abilities being common. Only the Glamour and Whispers subclasses really seem mind-magic-oriented.</p><p></p><p>Anything that ends up with the Bard "focused" on a specific thing like "mind magic" or "buffing others" and little else is not really going to be a D&D Bard because the dilettante spirit is part of their concept. I do think them being a full caster in 5E is a bit of a kludge, but the only real way to fix it would be to make major changes to other parts of the game to stop slot-based spells stealing so many concepts for magic and reduce the top-end power of casters. Several (most?) classes in 5E have design elements that are a bit kludge-y and speak to them being finished in a hurry, and Bard is one of the least-bad cases.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ruin Explorer, post: 8307735, member: 18"] I think this is misunderstanding why people play Bards if you're thinking they'd just switch to "mind mage". You're looking at concepts that have later been applied to Bards, and working outwards from there, not to like, why the class exists or what people actually want from it. It's a common issue and it's why the 3E Bard existed and was so extremely bad ("people play this dumb class because they suck and just want to sing dumb songs, right?" seems to be the 3E attitude lol). What people want from a Bard is absolutely not "mind magic" as some central focus. That might be what a lot of people want from, say, a Psion, or Mesmer/Enchanter, or even, dare I say it, a Wizard, but in general people aren't saying "Yo I want to mind-control people and crush their wills and force them to do my dark bidding!" and picking "Bard" as a class unless their next step is to pick one of two specific colleges (out of eight possible - "I wanna fight in melee" is equally popular as a college theme, note - Valor and Swords). What most people want from Bard is a diverse class that can do a lot of things, is clearly strongly magical, is okay with a sword in their hand (at least to look good, if not to be super-effective), has a lot of skills, knows lore, probably has some element of musical theme-ing (though this is likely [I]not[/I] dominating everying), and probably has abilities to help other people out. They're looking for a "master of none"-kind of character, not Mandrake, Master of Illusions (enemies crumble in fear and confusion!). Yeah mind-control spells are probably in the mix, but that's more because 3E wanted to stop Bards casting Fireball or the like (you sure as hell could in 2E, I did all the time), in case precious Wizards got upset. You can see this through the various editions: 1E's Bard is a mess, but is clearly expressing the "master of none, decent at several" theme. I understand there's one in a Dragon issue which is a lot closer to the 2E one. 2E's Bard is a true Jack-of-all-Trades - and then the kits which come out express different Bardic themes wonderfully - you will notice how few are music-first, but rather refer back to storytellers, loremasters, performers, and so on. 3E's Bard is an inversion of this design, going from master of none to bad at all, a pointless support class who is roundly inferior to a Cleric even at that. This is part of 3E's general hostility to 2E, and attempts to "wind the clock back". 3.5E's Bard tried to fix this, and improved the situation, but didn't get all the way, and then Pathfinder just trashed Bards again (and yes I have played a PF Bard). 4E's Bard went back to looking at what players wanted through a 4E lens of roles - it gave Bard the Leader role with the Controller secondary, which was a good approach, and expressed a general Jack-of-all-trades style, with a lot of helping people and a lot of flashy magic - most of it [I]not[/I] mind-control or music. 5E's Bard perfectly understands what Bard players have wanted and has been pretty iconic of 5E (esp. among younger players) as a result. It's a Jack-of-all-trades again - yes it's most powerful as a caster, and close in power to other casters, but its spell list and other limitations keep it under control, and the various themes are expressed through the Bard subclasses - again, the majority of them are not about mind-magic or even music. Speech is actually the main theme, I'd say - "Words of..." abilities being common. Only the Glamour and Whispers subclasses really seem mind-magic-oriented. Anything that ends up with the Bard "focused" on a specific thing like "mind magic" or "buffing others" and little else is not really going to be a D&D Bard because the dilettante spirit is part of their concept. I do think them being a full caster in 5E is a bit of a kludge, but the only real way to fix it would be to make major changes to other parts of the game to stop slot-based spells stealing so many concepts for magic and reduce the top-end power of casters. Several (most?) classes in 5E have design elements that are a bit kludge-y and speak to them being finished in a hurry, and Bard is one of the least-bad cases. [/QUOTE]
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